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Old 04/02/10, 12:32 PM   #15556
Aléssa
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
It's right for me to be gemming Apen, isn't it? I just had a feral druid making fun of me for doing it.. But I was sure that was the right thing to do?

Here's my armory, just incase:
The World of Warcraft Armory - Aléssa @ Argent Dawn - Profile

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Old 04/02/10, 12:47 PM   #15557
Paona
Glass Joe
 
Paona's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kirin Tor
So I've been hankering to play my BM Hunter for some time now, but the urge has been especially strong now, since BM got buffed in 3.3.3. I know it's not much, but I miss my pets, so I started looking into what the best race would be for me to convert my Hunter into, since the Hunter is originally a Dwarf, and I now play Horde. Let's hope this post is elitist enough for EJ.


Problem: Does race make a different in terms of DPS as a BM hunter?

Observations: There are seven hunter races. In addition to the variances in endgame stats, there are four races with racial abilities that provide a direct benefit to their DPS. They are:

Dwarves: 1% extra crit with guns
Draenei: 1% extra Hit
Orcs: 5% extra pet DPS, free 322 AP trinket
Trolls: 20% Haste trinket, 1% bow crit

As the current generation of BiS hunter ranged weapons are bows, Dwarves gain little to no benefit from their racial. Draenei receive a free 32.79 hit rating, which is equivalent to slightly more than 1.5 Rigid King's Amber, allowing stat distribution away from Hit, and towards damage stats, like Agility or AP. While Orcs have a free 322 AP trinket, as well as 5% extra pet DPS, the passive benefit, assuming it is popped every time it is off cooldown, is a very anemic:

322 attack power gain * 15 second up-time / 120 second cooldown = 40.25 average attack power gain.

However, Orcs also have a passive 5% pet damage bonus, which is of particular interest to BM hunters.

Trolls have a 20% haste trinket, which will scale with gear, but only affects the hunter's personal DPS, and 1% bow crit, which is beneficial, again, given that the large number of bows in BiS ranged weapons. However, since Haste is one of the weaker stats for a BM hunter, this likely will likely not have a significant effect.

Blood Elves have no direct damage-increasing racial abilities, instead deriving an instant mana gain effect. Theoretically, this results in additional spent blasting away, and less time spent in Aspect of the Viper compared to the other, effectively trading increased damage for increased throughput.

Night Elves and Tauren gain no DPS benefit from their racial abilities.

Hypothesis: I hypothesize that in order of DPS gained from racials, Dwarves will receive the least benefit from their racial, then Blood Elves, then Trolls, then Draenei, with Orcs receiving the greatest benefit.

Procedure:

We will pick out several BM hunters, and import their gear into Zeherah's DPS analyzer. These BM hunters will be picked by going through this thread and checking the characters of the posters here. If the character is logged out in a BM spec, then they are a valid candidate for this test. As this is a test of the effect of race on BM DPS, we seek only to see how much of a DPS swing that each set of racial abilities and end stats provides, within a set of gear. Selecting a BM hunter ensures that we will at least get a set of gear that is somewhat optimized to the spec. Since we can also import a build, we will import the basic spec, as listed in the first post into the DPS tool. We will also apply the same Major Glyphs, as well: Steady, Hawk, and Serpent Sting. We will ignore Minor Glyphs for the purposes of each test. For each test, we will use a Wolf, using the "Enable common pet spec" setting in the DPS analyzer. We will swap the race of our Frankenhunters, and see which race winds up with the highest DPS. Given a standardized spec, standardized glyphs, standardized pet, and standardized buffs, and only making comparisons between races relative to each other, within a given gear set, the only variables should be the racial stat differences, and the racial abilities.

In the case of the Draenei, if we wind up going over hit cap beyond 11 hit rating, we will attempt to replace hit gems (if there are any) with Agility/AP until we come back down to as close to the cap as possible, and take the better result.

For buffs and debuffs, we will set things to "Enable Best Raid Buffs" and "Enable Best Raid Debuffs". Yes, this means that the Alliance races will get the benefit of the Draenei 1% hit buff.

All other settings will be left as default.

Data:

It should be noted at this point that Wowhead-format talent specs were not properly importing into Zeherah's DPS Analyzer. I suspect this has something to do with how Wowhead has enabled the option to enable five additional talent points, simulating the level cap being raised to 85. Of course, this is not realistic, as the talent trees are undergoing major restructuring for Cataclysm, but hey, it's fun to play with, right? I have instead put together the same spec in the Armory's talent calculator.

Just for a bit of vanity, here's my shitty hunter where the people I started playing with abandoned me before I could get geared, Tornald of Bleeding Hollow. Please note that this character is in no way optimal at all, it totally not hitcapped, and was originally specced to have 3/3 Focused Aim. Remember, these are Frankenhunters that we are putting together here. Remember, given a standardized spec, standardized pet, and standardized buffs, and taking all data isolated within gear sets, the only variables should be the racial stat differences, and the racial abilities.

(Ordered from highest to lowest Combined DPS)

Race	Combined DPS	Hunter DPS	Pet DPS		Viper Loss
------------------------------------------------------------------
Orc	4908.29		2442.69		2465.61		-51.91
Dwarf	4849.57		2474.27		2375.31		-52.99
NElf	4823.10		2460.39		2362.72		-52.48
Draenei	4816.25		2455.65		2360.60		-52.19
BElf	4795.13		2448.92		2346.20		-39.68
Troll	4784.21		2439.75		2344.46		-51.99
Tauren	4768.24		2428.50		2339.74		-52.81
Well, so far, hypothesis is pretty much gone, except for the hypothesis that Orcs have the highest DPS. The results are likely skewed in favor of the Alliance races, because of not being hitcapped, resulting in Hit providing the greatest DPS boost, but seeing Orc still take the lead is impressive. However, since these tests are performed under *the absolute best raid conditions* the differences between DPS of races is likely much less. It should be noted that out of all the race selections, Orcs are the only one with a greater pet DPS than personal Hunter DPS. So there's our baseline.


Next is Nooska of EU-Argent Dawn, since banned from EJ, but hey, he's got a BM spec, and he logged out in it, which means, hopefully, his gear is BM-optimized.


(Ordered from highest to lowest Combined DPS)

Race	Combined DPS	Hunter DPS	Pet DPS		Viper Loss
------------------------------------------------------------------
Orc	9131.60		5703.73		3427.87		-19.63
Dwarf	8988.97		5727.83		3261.14		-20.23
BElf	8974.16		5712.99		3261.17		0
Troll	8966.45		5707.18		3259.27		-19.67
NElf	8954.03		5695.41		3258.62		-19.83
Draenei	8944.20		5686.30		3257.90		-19.53
Tauren	8935.38		5680.37		3255.02		-21.19
Dwarf is still in 2nd place, no doubt buoyed by the Gun Specialization racial, although I note that this hunter is using the ilvl264 gun Rowan's Rifle of Silver Bullets, a tank weapon. Maybe the upgrade was *just* that significant that even with the tank stats, the weapon was still an upgrade. Orc is still clearly in first place, although it should be noted that the trend between hunter and pet DPS does not hold true from lower gear levels. Also, yes, running the test as a Blood Elf did, in fact, give me a DPS result box without a "Viper Loss" value or heading. Tauren are still in last place.

Next is Lorelei of US-Gilneas


(Ordered from highest to lowest Combined DPS)

Race	Combined DPS	Hunter DPS	Pet DPS		Viper Loss
------------------------------------------------------------------
Orc	9776.12		6197.50		3578.62		-38.78
BElf	9619.18		6216.66		3402.52		-9.82
Troll	9603.18		6200.57		3402.61		-38.99
NElf	9592.06		6189.55		3402.51		-39.06
Draenei	9582.06		6180.56		3401.50		-38.72
Dwarf	9577.69		6178.57		3399.13		-39.28
Tauren	9572.45		6173.82		3398.63		-40.41
Two pattens are beginning to form here. Orcs are still at the top of the DPS charts, and Tauren are still at the bottom. It is surprising that Troll does not rank higher, as this hunter's gear uses a bow instead of a gun. Orcs are still far and away the best, offering an extra hypothetical 150 DPS as BM, over the next race.

Next is Brughe of US-Cenarion Circle

(Ordered from highest to lowest Combined DPS)

Race	Combined DPS	Hunter DPS	Pet DPS		Viper Loss
------------------------------------------------------------------
Orc	10435.29	6713.10		3722.19		-40.74
Troll	10304.05	6761.22		3542.83		-41.24
BElf	10275.48	6733.86		3541.63		-9.53
NElf	10246.12	6704.80		3541.32		-41.04
Draenei	10233.58	6695.51		3538.07		-40.68
Dwarf	10231.22	6693.45		3537.77		-41.29
Tauren	10224.22	6689.17		3535.05		-42.51
Good friggin' god. 10K hypothetical DPS on a BM hunter? *NOW* I've seen everything. Again, Orc on top, Tauren on bottom. Troll probably made it up to 2nd because of the Zod's Repeating Longbow.

Interpretation:

Okay, I've seen enough results to call it already. Race-changing a BM hunter to Orc always results in a DPS increase. This trend continues to hold even at progressively higher gear levels, with the gap in hypothetical DPS a consistent 100+ DPS. Sadly, as much as I love Tauren, they appear to consistently make the worst BM hunters. I suspect that things would be much different for Survival, but that is a different matter altogether.

Conclusion:

Splitting the data sets into two separate categories of Alliance and Horde BM hunters, however, shows a different story. For Alliance, where guns are involved, it appears that the combination of raw stats and +1% crit rating pushes Dwarves to the top, assuming said BM hunter is equipped with a gun. Outside of that, they appear to be the worst BM hunters. In cases where the weapon is not a consideration, Night Elves are the best BM hunters, although admittedly, not by much.

Horde-side, as previously stated, Orcs are the best BM hunters, followed Blood Elves, Trolls and Tauren, except in the case where a Zod's Repeating Longbow is involved, which appears to bump Trolls up to the number two slot, seeing as how the proc crits based on your crit rate.

I'd still like to add more data points, though. If you are a BM hunter, say so, so I can throw your data up here for comparison?

Just seeing the theoretical DPS on the last character there, is inspiring. I suspect that Brughe is sufficiently geared enough to be able to drop Arcane shot from his rotation, which means that the DPS would be even higher. One thing I'd like to do, the next time I am bored out of my skull and decide to do something stupid like this, is to go and find BM hunters with sub-optimal gear, just for kicks, and see if Orcs still reign supreme as BM. But that's hard to do when your pool of potential BM hunters are the people here, since this this is EJ, which sort of sets a higher standard for gear/spec than the random hunter.

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Old 04/02/10, 1:18 PM   #15558
k1dfr3sh777
 
Blood Elf Warrior
 
Scarlet Crusade
But what about my Bloodfang Hood????

Okay.. so I'm going through the spreadsheet.... which is very helpful B T Dubs... but I don't see an option for my Bloodfang Hood on the list... okay okay.. I realize that the Bloodfang is prob not the most optimal choice.. but.. I'm wearing it.. so what can I do about choosing the most optimum socketing and enchanting if I don't have the proper helm choosen?

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Old 04/02/10, 1:23 PM   #15559
gordasius
Glass Joe
 
Undead Death Knight
 
Lightninghoof
Quick Question

I am wondering...because I see no where on here...where TINY ABOMINATION IN A JAR stacks up as far as trinkets for Fury warriors go. I am currently in 4pc but the best trinket I have right now is ICC10 Crit trinket and then I have been using the ArPen Banner of victory from toc5. I could have a Tiny Abom but wondered if its any good for FUry warriors. I cant find anything that talks about it or suggests good or no good. Thanks for your hel in advance.

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Old 04/02/10, 1:25 PM   #15560
Arkaal
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
Baelgun
Originally Posted by Myrinia View Post
Hey all, I was wondering. As my guild has randomally picked me to tank the Blood Prince for ICC.
I have No idea what I am doing (with my talents) and am wondeirng if anyone could give me some advice.

I have heard that demology is the most efficient spec, but beyond speccing for an instant pet. I have never used the spec.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

is what I was planning on using.. Does it look ok?
For your first time, I'd suggest getting Nether Protection. It means your spec will be pretty worthless for anything else, but that's what dual-spec is for. In my experience, NP will have a 60-65% uptime on that fight. Combined with Felhunter-MD and Soul Link, you're taking a lot less damage.

After you have beaten the fight, you can scale back your damage reduction talents based on how comfortable your healers are with your survivability. However, for your first attempts, surviving the Empowered phases is critical, and you want all the help you can get for that.

Here's the build I used for my first time: all survival, no dps

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Old 04/02/10, 1:27 PM   #15561
saedo
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Gorgonnash
Add the gear yourself. Unhide the Gear sheet. Copy paste insert a row where the helms are. Enter all the stats along the row.

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Old 04/02/10, 1:32 PM   #15562
k1dfr3sh777
 
Blood Elf Warrior
 
Scarlet Crusade
Alright.. I'm lost.. do what now??

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Old 04/02/10, 1:49 PM   #15563
Maskinen
 
Orc Hunter
 
Doomhammer (EU)
I was just wondering if there has been any testing for Deathbringer's Will and the heroic version of it, to see if it stacks. Or if it is a dps gain to have both equiped. According to the spreadsheet it is for me.

I tried searching 20 pages back with the word "Deathbringer" but got no results.

Hope somone could clarify this for me.

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Old 04/02/10, 1:54 PM   #15564
matthewseidl
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Emerald Dream
Originally Posted by Myrinia View Post
Hey all, I was wondering. As my guild has randomally picked me to tank the Blood Prince for ICC.
I have No idea what I am doing (with my talents) and am wondeirng if anyone could give me some advice.

I have heard that demology is the most efficient spec, but beyond speccing for an instant pet. I have never used the spec.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

is what I was planning on using.. Does it look ok?
Why do they want to use a warlock tank at all for this? Now that he doesn't melee, you're generally better off using a DK to tank him. The DK has better burst aggro to hold him (IT spam), has more cooldowns for survivability, likely has more health, and has plenty of ranged abilities to acquire orbs. THere was a whole thread about warlock tanking BP on here a while ago, so you might also check that out for specs/advice.

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Old 04/02/10, 1:54 PM   #15565
mako
Don Flamenco
 
mako's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
<Bad>
Dragonmaw
You can only equip one DBW. The Unique tag on ICC trinkets includes the normal and heroic versions, so it's not possible to have both on at the same time.

It's called Bloodlust, not Heroism. What kind of pansy name is Heroism, anyway?
<Bad> Dragonmaw US
www.damnwesuck.com
12/13 [25] Heroic - Recruiting exceptional players.

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Old 04/02/10, 2:03 PM   #15566
turturin
Don Flamenco
 
Orc Warlock
 
Kilrogg
This is not to mention the fact that the best dps class on council is warlock. I've gone into some detail on this in the tanking thread but here is the short version: There is no good reason (assuming equal player skill) to have a warlock (or any ranged) tank this encounter, and there hasn't been since the very first week (when Keleseth could still melee).

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Old 04/02/10, 2:48 PM   #15567
maphive
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Hyjal
I thought the TotT + 2T10 trick didn't work since Serpent Sting does nature damage while TotT only boosts Physical damage.

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Old 04/02/10, 3:54 PM   #15568
bankyz
Banned
 
Blood Elf Rogue
 
Aegwynn
What is the general 3.3.3 combat gemming routine? Was waiting for Aldriana's spreadsheet before removing my ARP gems, but is it safe to say AP gems are a fair increase? I have a very high amount of ARP currently ~80%, 1100arp

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Old 04/02/10, 4:19 PM   #15569
alienangel
Bald Bull
 
alienangel's Avatar
 
Draenei Hunter
 
Eredar
Originally Posted by Nebelwerfer View Post
A tott timed with a 2t10 proc would certainly be worthwhile. What the poster above me is forgetting is that the second part of the chimera shot is also based off the total serpent damage - the more you increase this, the more damage both the serpent sting the the Chimera Shot-Serpent will do - rolling it for the course of an entire fight (if able to get an early 2t10 proc) results in not only 25% more damage from the serpent sting, but also substantially increased chimera damage from the serpent sting component - it will result in a lot more damage if it can be done early and is worthwhile.
Just for the record, this is not correct (unless something has substantially changed since all the previous times this was tested). Only serpent sting locks in the % damage bonus, Chimera - Serpent still calculates off your current stats and modifiers only.

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Old 04/02/10, 5:24 PM   #15570
Denariuss
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Bleeding Hollow
Which trinket would be better dps? 245 Deaths Choice, or the 264 Herkuml War totem? Also if there a point where you've got to much haste? I'm a 622 haste without using the Herkuml War totem, that would bring me to 775 haste.

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