Thread of Ultimate Stupidity - Page 1162

Nyth_ · 06/15/10, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by Jian

My DK is currently sub-frost with Bryntroll and sitting one point over the cap. So, is the 26 cap really what i should be aiming to or can i go lower than that?

You can easily go lower.

I mean if you're subfrost (which most are these days) you have plenty of free GCD. Not only do you have the usual free GCD that come with the rotation. You also have the possibility to skip out a blood strike, without any real ramifications.

Expertise seems to be heavily burdened under false presumptions. Because people look at other classes or specs, take that info and apply it directly to themselves without thinking about it.

Take frost DW for example. As frost DW the expertise cap is more important. Why ?
I basically have 2 physical attacks that use runes:
- Obliterate
- Blood Strike
The former is pretty much the biggest contributor to dps, the latter is needed to turn blood runes to deathrune. So the first reason is: I can't skip out any attacks to create free GCDs (unlike a frost subspec unholy)

Second and more importantly you use glyph of disease. That means you have 21 seconds to complete a 20 second rotation, and if you fail at that you lose a lot of dps.
If I miss my double deathrune obliterate, it means i have to redo it, that results in the bloodrunes not refreshing in time and i miss my window to refresh. That is one of the main reasons I'd want expertise cap as frost DW.

Unholy doesn't suffer from those reasons really. If you miss a rune attack you can redo it without much loss; even if you are in a high-RP fight like festergut or something, you could skip out 1 or several blood strikes if needed to counter the dodge you might have had.
Sure that is a 4-5k damage loss from that blood strike (which is hardly anything in a boss fight); but you'll probably make that up by gemming / gearing for better stats instead of expertise (which boost all damage during a fight).
(Not that expertise is worthless).

For other classes they have other ramifications as well. Rogues for example get more poison procs if they get expertise, they get more combat potency procs with expertise, Retridins are a cooldown based class, if they miss on their cooldowns, they simply can't use it for the next X seconds, unlike runes that refresh instantly again.
Just because they value expertise highly doesn't mean we do too.

Velliuss · 06/15/10, 9:38 AM

What? no.
Unholy is about as GCD locked as it gets.

Secondly, your top 2 dmg abilities are (1)Melee (2) Scourge Strike (or Obliterate in your case).

Afabar · 06/15/10, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Velliuss

What? no.
Unholy is about as GCD locked as it gets.
Secondly, your top 2 dmg abilities are (1)Melee (2) Scourge Strike (or Obliterate in your case).

You have to take into account what is affected by Expertise and what's not. As a "standard" breakdown, we have something like:
White hit: 24%, SS: 18 %, Ghoul: 13%, DC: 10%, BS: 7%, Frost Fever: 6%, Blood Plague: 5%, Wandering Plague: 4%, BCB: 4%, Necrosis: 4%,PS: 2%, IT: 2% UB: 1%, AoTD: 1%

Only White hit, SS, BS, PS, BCB, Necrosis are affected by Expertise. That's only 59% of our total damage. By comparison, Strength affects 100% of our damaging abilities.

Velliuss · 06/15/10, 10:43 AM

ok, we'll go with 59%. then lets say we switch out expertise for str. if you go with a gem so that its equal value exchange (20-20). you'll lose 1 expertise or .25 parry/dodge totalling .5% attacks missed. thats a .295% dmg loss overall. i can't do the math on how much dps gain 20 str would give you cause there's a lot of other variables in there, but i don't think its gonna be more than the exp loss.

correct me if i'm wrong.

Nyth_ · 06/15/10, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by Velliuss

ok, we'll go with 59%. then lets say we switch out expertise for str. if you go with a gem so that its equal value exchange (20-20). you'll lose 1 expertise or .25 parry/dodge totalling .5% attacks missed. thats a .295% dmg loss overall. i can't do the math on how much dps gain 20 str would give you cause there's a lot of other variables in there, but i don't think its gonna be more than the exp loss.

correct me if i'm wrong.

It's not that straight forward.

If you miss a SS, you can redo it. If you don't have the GCDs to fit in 1 more attack than you still do the SS and drop out a BS instead (that was my point in the previous point) meaning you greatly diminish the loss there.

Also, you don't get any parries since you attack from behind. so the total attacks "missed" per 1 expertise loss is only 0.25%.

dwilliams23 · 06/15/10, 11:42 AM

I wanted to ask about Fury Weapons, I am seeing a lot of Fury warriors putting a faster weapon in there MH and claiming/justifying it has more "base damage" therefore it does more dps? Is this true? Ive always known the faster weapon to be in the OH to keep up rage and to let the slower weapon be in the MH to do more damage. Any info here is appreciated.

trinket- Is Death's Verdict (heroic) better than Whispering Fang (reg)?

keetoowah - Arygos

Aphrodite6669 · 06/15/10, 12:14 PM

hi i am looking for help in finding what enchants and gems a bear should use.... if i am in the wrong spot or have over looked it in these meny threads plz derect me to the right one...

Thank you in advance
New and Lost

Deathbydro · 06/15/10, 12:22 PM

Ok so in my case I currently have currently about 21 expertise rating 11 points in that rating come from spec/racial passive the other 10 points comes from Rotface's Rupturing Ring, but I could replace this with Might of Blight. I'm unsure though if this would increase my dps or not since I would be very far off the expertise soft cap. Any opinions?

Aphrodite6669 · 06/15/10, 12:32 PM

I think i have missed what gems and enchants a bear will need if there is anyway someone could let me know plz,,, I am trying to help out my guild's tanks with his gems and enchants he needs,,,,plz help point me in the right direction

Thanks inadvance

Nyth_ · 06/15/10, 12:36 PM

There are always a multitude of factors to consider.

Is it a dps increase in a vaccuum? Probably as the higher stats and crit hold more AEP value.

The thing is though, that players do not react on a dodge as controlled as a simulator does. And on top of that there is also the QoL (quality of life) factor; namely that it's easier and more comfortable to play if you have a small chance to be dodged.

Those are factors you can not really account for though.

If you can react on the dodges easily enough it's probably a dps increase though.

Umah · 06/15/10, 12:56 PM

You may choose between 18 stamina or 240 armor. I'd go with 18 stamina as the survivability for physical attacks is almost equal but its higher for magical attacks with 18 stamina. 240 armor on the other hand mitigates some damage - which means you would take less heal, in theory. But as you will get overhealed anyway I'd go with stamina. Agility is (within ICC at least) rather not a good idea.

jimmthx · 06/15/10, 1:22 PM

i realised the mostly used combination of glyphs are glyph of frost strike,disease and oblit, im currently rolling with glyph of icy touch, disease and oblit, gemmed for STR and DPSing in blood presence with 2/2 CotG, and i rarely/never had a situation where i don't have enough runic power to cast frost strikes whenever i need to. Im wondering why glyph of froststrike is valued above of icy touch, only reason i can think of is ppl are dpsing in unholy presence with extra gcds allowing the frost strike glyph to throw out more frost strikes (i tried dpsing in unholy presence with 2/2 CotG & icy touch glyph and suffered massive lack of runic power).

Sixthy · 06/15/10, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by Divis0R

Actually, you can do it a lot better as a shaman than as a paladin. The main issue of the Frostmourne room is Soul Rip, an 8 seconds channel casted by the Spirit Warden. A paladin can interrupt it once, with Hammer of Justice. However, the hammer has a huge cooldown. Shamans can interrupt it all the time, because of the incredibly small cooldown on Wind Shear. Make sure you interrupt it as fast as possible. A full channel can do damage worth around 50% of Terenas' hp pool. Was there and it wasn't fun the first time. It was incredibly funny the second time, as I spent most of the time meleeing the Warden down with Flametongue on my mace.

Wrong version of the fight - you quoted a response to healing the heroic version as a shaman, not the regular.

Messybeard · 06/15/10, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Evildead1

Another short question. Anyone got a formula to quickly calculate how long an add has to stay alive for corruption to be stronger than SB? (e.g. Saurfang)

For adds like Saurfang, I wouldn't bother with corruption at all, They should be going down much faster than the time it would take for Corruption to be useful, In fact the GCD used to cast it is more of a dps loss since you'd be lucky to get more than one tick off before it dies. Typically in our raid, the Affliction lock, whichever one of us it is, stays on Saurfang and doesn't even worry about the adds, unless something has gone horribly wrong and an extra SB or two is needed. As far as a formula, just figure out how long with your particular haste, it takes for corruption to tick and on average for how much, compare that with the length of the adds life, vs the direct damage from a SB. I'm pretty sure you'll find that in most cases, especially if the add is focused down, corruption will not be worth casting. Much like in the case of a Blazing Skeleton.

Naforce · 06/15/10, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by Messybeard

For adds like Saurfang, I wouldn't bother with corruption at all, They should be going down much faster than the time it would take for Corruption to be useful, In fact the GCD used to cast it is more of a dps loss since you'd be lucky to get more than one tick off before it dies. Typically in our raid, the Affliction lock, whichever one of us it is, stays on Saurfang and doesn't even worry about the adds, unless something has gone horribly wrong and an extra SB or two is needed. As far as a formula, just figure out how long with your particular haste, it takes for corruption to tick and on average for how much, compare that with the length of the adds life, vs the direct damage from a SB. I'm pretty sure you'll find that in most cases, especially if the add is focused down, corruption will not be worth casting. Much like in the case of a Blazing Skeleton.

This is very untrue. One tick for corruption is like what, 1.5s? Adds live way longer then that. I usually put 3 corr up on the 3 adds I know will live the longest, then go full on the boss again and end up around 15-17k dps depending on rng mostly.