Thread of Ultimate Stupidity - Page 1172

Drunder40 · 06/22/10, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

After reading Roywyn's post, I started thinking about how we might discover the optimal rotation for a given set of fight parameters and character stats. I realized that the problem can be phrased as thus: we're trying to extract a scalar (damage done) as a function of a function (spell cycles). That is, we have a function of a function--a functional---and what we're trying to do is optimize that functional (find its maximum).

Folks familiar with Lagrangian mechanics will realize this is exactly what we do when we use that formalism to find the equations of motion of a particle: action is a function of path (which is in itself a function), and we extremize the action to find the true trajectory of the particle that fits the boundary conditions.

If we still assume that we start a fight with full mana and end it empty (an assumption I think sound because, I think, for short enough fights it should be better to burn mana rather than use high Adept bonuses to conserve, but I don't regard this as proven and examining this principle is in itself something worthy of study), we can apply this formalism, the calculus of variations, to the problem of Mana Adept.

Using Roywyn's notation (slightly extended) we have

$E = \int_0^{t_{\text{end}}} e(m) A(m) \; dt$

That is, total damage is the integral of instantaneous DPS over the length of the fight, and DPS = base cycle DPS * mana adept multiplier. m = m(t), mana as a function of time.

I think, actually, we can break this down further in a useful way. We know that DPS = MPS * DPM. I feel we should break down e(m) into $p(\dot{m}) \dot{m}$ ; that is, DPM * MPS. The reason for this being that it's useful when we apply the Euler-Lagrange equation. Our total DPS function now looks like

$D(t) = p(m) A(m) \dot{m}$

The E-L equation states that the cycle that extremizes DPS must follow

$\frac{\partial D}{\partial m} = \frac{d}{dt} \frac{\partial D}{\partial \dot{m}}$

In other words, we treat $m,\dot{m}$ as unconnected variables for the partial derivatives, but then we do the time derivative in the second term normally.

For this problem (if I've done my chain rule right), we get

$p A' \dot{m} = p' A \ddot{m} + p A' \dot{m} + p'' A [\dot{m}]^2 \ddot{m} + p' A' [\dot{m}]^2 + p' A \ddot{m}$

Where $A' = A'(m)$ and $p' = p'(\dot{m})$ and so on. The left-hand side and second term of the right-hand side cancel, and the first and last terms add, to yield

$2p' A \ddot{m} + p'' A [\dot{m}]^2 \ddot{m} + p' A' [\dot{m}]^2 = 0$

In short, a second-order nonlinear differential equation. In the case that Mana Adept is a linear multiplier, however, at least all the A' will be constants. DPM of different cycles would have to be fit to a polynomial, however, and even then, I have no idea how to solve this equation or whether, if we get a solution, that we can closely (or even roughly) approximate that solution as a sum of discrete cycles in sequence.

I can imagine, however, that knowing this differential equation, a program like Rawr can in theory use it to discover optimal cycles, although I'm far from saying this is the best way to do so. Someone with more expertise in this branch of mathematics would likely be more helpful in this regard.

Edited: simplified.

My head hurts :-( .. and this apparently is the simplified version...

stiq · 06/22/10, 1:29 PM

i do. i have the heroic MH axe from anub available, so loot filters seem fine. Also, the non-heroic version is there, it's just the ilvl 258 version that isn't.

EDIT: It seems like race selection has something to do with it. I launched a fresh iDPS and selected my race prior to choosing any gear and everything showed up fine. Gonna mess around and see if i can reproduce the issue. If not, safe to assume I mucked something up.

tegarbah · 06/22/10, 1:42 PM

I've always continued to fish for the MB proc from spamming AB. Obviously this has lead to major mana issues when I get up to 9-10 casts with no proc. I didn't know what the best solution to this was. Cut the stacks with ABarr? It's good to know that AM un proced is a better alternative.

I do cast ABarr immediately following a MB proc, provided not under the effects of Icy Veins or Heroism as gcd loss is far greater. Numerous times I've had a MB proc - ABarr - MB proc - ABarr - MB proc - ABarr - AB... Very nice when the mana pool is getting low with all the free MB casts. Currenlty my haste is a bit low after getting T10 4pc (800ish) so it seems like an instant, ABarr, works well. I assume once my haste gets higher (1100ish) then the GCD is better spent getting back into AB.

Dragonriot · 06/22/10, 2:24 PM

[Revitalizing Skyflare Diamond] gives a constant 11MP5 and 3% increased Critical Healing, versus the 21 intellect and 600 Mana chance on spellcast of the [Insightful Earthsiege Diamond]. I know that for a Holy Light pally, Crit is not as desirable stat as Int, since it just creates more of the already abundant overhealing done by Holy Light Spam. However, if you were to spec into Flash of Light instead of Holy Light, wouldn't the constant mana regen and 3% increased crit value be a good thing? If you're talented and gemmed for 50% crit, getting to 53% crit for a FoL build would seem to be.... 3% better... :P Also, what is the proc rate of the IED? If it's anything like the other proc items that drop in T9 and T10 dungeons, the 2% chance to proc 600 mana doesn't seem to out perform the 11MP5 of the RSD. The other option is [Ember Skyflare Diamond], but I would guess that's only viable if you NEVER have mana problems and want more Spell Power.

I've also noticed while reading this thread, that 99% of the attention is given to HL Builds, assuming that no one is playing, or is capable of competing in raids, with a FoL build. In Cataclysm, FoL will be even less effective, but that's not because the guys holding the nerf bats wanted it to be less effective, but rather because so many Paladins are speccing into Holy Light builds, and they figured why not make that spec even more effective. Essentially, it seems like in Cata, we will be even more gimped into our classicaly singular job of pure tank healing, rather than being effective raid healers with Beacon and FoL spam across the raid. I personally rolled my Pally to be a FoL healer, and have no intention of changing that role, unless Blizzard makes it completely non-viable to throw Flashes instead of Holy Lights. I know I will have to spec into Holy Light for a while to get the gear that makes FoL spamming possible, but I'd really like some more insight into why more Pallies aren't specced into Flash of Light.

From what I've seen on some parses, the top raid healer in many of the best guilds is a Flashing Pally, who also has top Tank Heals because of Beacon... Their overhealing done is minimal, because of the small and superfast heals, their crits are enormous, and total HPS is just under par with an HL Pally in the same raid... so why the distain for FoL healing on this and many other forums? Is it just because HL spam is easier? Is FoL spam that difficult to micromanage that people avoid it thinking they can't keep up?

When you look at the numbers, a Holy Light non-crit hits for about 11k, while a FoL non-crit hits for about 5-6k... Similarly, Crit HL hits for about 22k, and FoL hits for 10-12k... The difference comes in that the FoL build has a heck of a lot more Crit, and when you're spamming, you end up with less overhealing, but the tank and raid is still topped off... and if the shit hits the fan, you can always pop Divine Illumination, Avenging Wrath, and Trinkets for some mad crazy Holy Light spam to get everything under control. All the while, your FoL build in iLvL232 gear or better, is pushing 12k HPS with no overheals, while the HL build is pushing 14kHPS with 50% overheals or more.

The last thing I want to ask about is Haste... if you're at 676 haste, you are effectively at 50% haste with Talents, giving you a 1 second Flash of Light and a 1.33 second Holy Light. Assuming Flash of Light is 50% as effective per cast as Holy Light, because of the higher crits done by FoL builds, and that a FoL healer averages 5k per cast, and HL healer averages 10k per cast, just for easy numbers. After 4 seconds, the FoL healer will have done 20k healing, and the HL healer will have done 30k healing, with 10k of that as Overheals. Obviously these aren't ICC Raid numbers, but you get the idea... The question here, is again... why aren't more people just getting hasted to the GCD, and using FoL builds?

Before you guys flame the hell out of my post, please understand that I have done a lot of research into FoL healing, AND HL healing, and have found them to be about equal... However, my paladin is only level 72, and while I am leveling very quickly for the purpose of getting into my guild's raids as the FoL Holy Pally in the guild (with the GMs blessing of course), I don't have the level 80 raiding experience on a healer that the majority of you guys do. I am not making accusations, only asking what I feel are very pertinent questions, based on data that I've seen from other Pallies. On that note, the 5 top Paladin healers on Maiev are all specced Flash of Light for ICC25 Hard Modes.

Sorry for my excessive novel... I want to learn.

Anobix · 06/22/10, 2:35 PM

You shouldn't be using Abarr after MB procs, that changed in 3.08 (pre-Ulduar) when they fixed clipping the last tick. Abarr should really only be used when moving and when you can't use a POM+Arcane Blast.

pally421 · 06/22/10, 2:37 PM

I don't know if it was mentioned. I tried to read as much as possible. but there are soo many pages!
But I was wondering what is the ideal soft and hard haste cap. and what is the ideal amount of mp5 to have? thanks. and sorry if this was already asked.

Dragonriot · 06/22/10, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by pally421

I don't know if it was mentioned. I tried to read as much as possible. but there are soo many pages!
But I was wondering what is the ideal soft and hard haste cap. and what is the ideal amount of mp5 to have? thanks. and sorry if this was already asked.

50% haste is 676 on gear plus talents and {ret pally, shaman} raid buffs from what I read... 100% haste is like 3000+ which is unreachable on gear right now, and would make Holy Lights 1 second casts.

cliffjam · 06/22/10, 3:44 PM

I apologize if this isn't the proper place to ask, and please do not take this as whining as it is meant to be a constructive request.

I am attempting to run a Blood Tank in preparation for Cataclysm. My main is an AFF lock and this site has been phenomenal in helping steer me in that aspect, even so far as to offspec my warlock as a tank for heroics when taking an under-geared tank through the gauntlet. Sadly, my warlock is tanking better than my Blood DK on AoE threat, so I oblviously need your help.

What I notice in the DK forums, there are plenty of tanking threads that include ALL 3 trees, but none exclusive to the Blood tanking that reportedly will come with Cataclysm. I am learning the abbreviations as quick as possible for abilities, but I'm having a hard time determining what is actually being recommended for Blood endgame tanking since there isn't any sorting of the posts about unholy and frost tanking within these threads.

The threads currently in use are : Suno's endgame tanking for all 3 trees, a DW (primarily frost talent) tanking thread, and I suppose you could count this thread since Blood tanking will change in Cata.

May I please request a post exclusive to Blood Tanking?

Inversinator · 06/22/10, 4:01 PM

A lot of stuff to absorb, but thanks so much for the info!

Leilanis · 06/22/10, 4:22 PM

HELP with DPS please!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you all please take a look at my stats and help me gain some MUCH needed DPS? I recently switched to fury and I'm having a lot of trouble with DPS? My GS is 5117. On a good day I'm doing 3k DPS. My rotation is Blood-thirst,WW,SLAM,HS(rage dump) and Cleave for more than 1 mob. I use death-wish and Recklessness when they are avail. I'm thinking my Strength or AP is too low? Or does a Fury Warrior need to be expertise capped? (and what is the cap?) I'm really having a problem here. I get out DPS'd by lower GS Warriors even in heroic 5 mans. This is my very first WoW toon. I want to learn and get better. Soooo, I need your help. Other than the obvious issues, I know I have a tank trinket and Pvp necklace. They are currently a part of my tank set and I'm getting badges to replace, but they are all I have. What food buffs do you reccomend for my current stats? I have been eating Hearty Rhino for the AP.

Also I know that I have seen a DPS calculator here, but for the life of me I can't find it now. I'm guessing I input my gear/stats and it will tell me what DPS i SHOULD be putting out?!

Please take a look and I appreciate your constructive feedback.

Have fun!!

Leilanis

Vuenf · 06/22/10, 4:26 PM

please create another BiS list including Halion loot

ariesz · 06/22/10, 4:55 PM

Dragonriot:

Overheal is not a concern in the current iteration of WoW.

So from what you said above, FoL gives 12k HPS or something and HL gives 14k HPS, you would want to spec the one that gives more HPS regardless of overhealing.

Ariathe · 06/22/10, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by goroz

Per the earlier post with the spreadsheet DL link, "The amount of the excessive Hit rating is shown as a negative number on the orange box" - given a hit rating of 439, how can I have 544 excessive hit?

What this is telling you is that your chance to crit is so low that even if you had zero hit rating, you would not be crit capped.

RoseQuartz · 06/22/10, 7:00 PM

Originally Posted by Balancemoon

As far as I know, ... You gain a buff when you hit the end of the slider to your main nuke only. However the slider position affects the damage of all spells in the nature or arcane schools. The bar position scales the damage.
...
The details haven't been finalized, but this is how it currently works, but things may change as it is fine tuned.

I have found no evidence of the above myself. You seem to be speculating about the details of the mechanics you are discussing, but wording the speculations as facts.

Ashenray · 06/22/10, 7:09 PM

I seen earlier someone asking about using FC on both wpns. I just was curious since I did not see a response, as to the effectiveness of doing this? Is RI/FC still the best combo or is going FC/FC viable?