Thread of Ultimate Stupidity - Page 1269

Stopokingme · 09/26/10, 7:55 AM

/edit Bah, disregard, I was wrong.

gigu321 · 09/26/10, 10:58 AM

Ok i readed ur post...
Thanks it was helpful , i raised my dps with 1k.
But ...I'm doing only 3k DPS so whats the problem?
I used the right rotation too.

Here is link for the armory
The World of Warcraft Armory - @ - Profile

Consider · 09/26/10, 12:23 PM

Since I'm posting anyways; I added the rudimentary basics of Unholy play in Cataclysm to the prelude of the first post. Yes, it's all subject to change, but at this point in time the spec is rather polished (compared to most others, at least), and thus I wouldn't expect anything radically different. I'll certainly update it as/if necessary, but it should give those who haven't been glued to the latest DK news and analysis an idea of where the spec is going, so they can prepare for 4.0 if nothing else.

Obviously once the expansion is more imminent I'll throw up a full-fledged new OP (or whatever means I use for the guide this time around), but that's still a little ways off.

One question I have, since I wasn't doing this thread at the start of Wrath, would the AMS and DSim (it will need its own area, I assure you; I do plan on redoing the format of the former section as well) sections starting from heroics be of interest, or just from the first tier of raiding? Heroics are definitely a step up from Wrath ones, but they're still nothing that crazy - people will be doing them for quite a while though, at least those not on the bleeding edge. I don't know.

Originally Posted by jbs89

edit: I am also aware that some are under the impression that 45 seconds is the shortest icd but I am more than happy to show any and all that this is not the case, simply counting it for 5 minutes will give you a more than satisfactory conclusion on the icd AND clockwork proc, which it gave me before I leveled.... tailoring (lol)

Then please do so instead of posting a bunch of drivel? Simply parse a fight with it and I'll do the math. If you're right, it will show in five seconds. If you're wrong, then you won't be wasting anyone's time by making a claim without any support ^.-. It's rather silly to post a claim without any proof, but to say you can get proof if desired. Just skip the intermediary step next time.

Short of some type of proof, however, everything I've ever seen has pointed to it having a 45 second ICD. I find it highly unlikely this got stealth nerfed somewhere along the lines or that I've had it wrong the entire time this thread has been up. If either is the case, I will happily admit to my failure, but proof... you need it before anything else, and that cannot be said enough.

Also, I've never said that 40 strength is equivalent to 100 AP. I'm really not sure what you're reading or whether you're just pulling that out of nowhere. Obviously the former is far superior, as my own posted stat-weights would show. BS/JC are far superior to Tailoring, and it specifically says as much in the original post. Even if you were to be right about the ICD being 35 seconds on the cloak enchant (which I really do doubt!), BS/JC (let alone Engineering) would still be far superior to Tailoring once you factored in the loss of 22 haste which the embroidery causes. There's nothing wrong with being a Tailor, but it is unarguably inferior from a raw dps perspective to other professions - as a Death Knight, anyways.

As to your edit... I assure you, I factored in the loss of the glove enchant. I'm a fairly intelligent guy, you know, and wouldn't forget such a basic factor! Engineering is still king, whether or not your inclined to agree. as it's an objective fact.

rellikz · 09/26/10, 1:48 PM

I've been looking at the talent builds(13066) and when I invested all of my points into the necessary talents (at least I believe all of the ones selected were necessary) I still had an extra talent point and I didn't really know where to put it. Since I can't link you the build I will type out what it looked like:
-Elemental Tree
Acuity 3/3
Concussion 3/3
Call of Flame 2/2
Elemental Precision 3/3
Elemental Warding 2/3 (Was debating it vs Reverberation, however I do not know how important shocks are from the regular cooldown timer for this to be effective since I haven't done any PTR/beta testing. These points were also the ones where I had it at 1/3 and then I had the 1 extra point after that I threw it in here.)
Rolling Thunder 2/2
Elemental Focus 1/1
Elemental Reach 2/2
Elemental Oath 2/2
Lava Flows 3/3
Fulmination 1/1
Elemental Master 1/1
Totemic Wrath 1/1
Feedback 3/3
Lava Surge 2/2
Earthquake 1/1
-Enhancement Tree
Elemental Weapons 2/2
Improved Shield 3/3
Ancestral Swiftness2/2
Totemic Reach 2/2
Let me know what you think and the Warding vs Reverb talent unless there is something else I overlooked.

jbs89 · 09/26/10, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

Since I'm posting anyways; I added the rudimentary basics of Unholy play in Cataclysm to the prelude of the first post. Yes, it's all subject to change, but at this point in time the spec is rather polished (compared to most others, at least), and thus I wouldn't expect anything radically different. I'll certainly update it as/if necessary, but it should give those who haven't been glued to the latest DK news and analysis an idea of where the spec is going, so they can prepare for 4.0 if nothing else.

Obviously once the expansion is more imminent I'll throw up a full-fledged new OP (or whatever means I use for the guide this time around), but that's still a little ways off.

One question I have, since I wasn't doing this thread at the start of Wrath, would the AMS and DSim (it will need its own area, I assure you; I do plan on redoing the format of the former section as well) sections starting from heroics be of interest, or just from the first tier of raiding? Heroics are definitely a step up from Wrath ones, but they're still nothing that crazy - people will be doing them for quite a while though, at least those not on the bleeding edge. I don't know.

Then please do so instead of posting a bunch of drivel? Simply parse a fight with it and I'll do the math. If you're right, it will show in five seconds. If you're wrong, then you won't be wasting anyone's time by making a claim without any support ^.-. It's rather silly to post a claim without any proof, but to say you can get proof if desired. Just skip the intermediary step next time.

Short of some type of proof, however, everything I've ever seen has pointed to it having a 45 second ICD, which would give it an approximate 25% uptime (plus or minus a percent or two, of course). I find it highly unlikely this got stealth nerfed somewhere along the lines or that I've had it wrong the entire time this thread has been up. If either is the case, I will happily admit to my failure, but proof... you need it before anything else, and that cannot be said enough.

Also, I've never said that 40 strength is equivalent to 100 AP. I'm really not sure what you're reading or whether you're just pulling that out of nowhere. Obviously the former is far superior, as my own posted stat-weights would show. BS/JC are far superior to Tailoring, and it specifically says as much in the original post. Even if you were to be right about the ICD being 35 seconds on the cloak enchant (which I really do doubt!), BS/JC (let alone Engineering) would still be far superior to Tailoring once you factored in the loss of 22 haste which the embroidery causes. There's nothing wrong with being a Tailor, but it is unarguably inferior from a raw dps perspective to other professions - as a Death Knight, anyways.

As to your edit... I assure you, I factored in the loss of the glove enchant. I'm a fairly intelligent guy, you know, and wouldn't forget such a basic factor! Engineering is still king, whether or not your inclined to agree. as it's an objective fact.

a static increase of 121 vs 22 haste and a 40 STR, with ALL the Raid/DK buffs, That 40 str goes turns into about 92 AP, and when all of your procs go off (an impossible scenario practically) it can hit ~135 AP.

So thats going to be on average about ~100 AP + 22 haste vs 121 AP + 400 AP on Gargoyle/Ghoul/Army Summons (great for Lady D's shield). Your SURE that 22 haste is still better, at this point I seriously doubt it.

As for a parser, I really have no idea how to use one; but if you have a moment to make a character on Greymane Alliance, my character is Apophuis, Id be more than happy to meet you in SW/IF and show you for 5 minutes that its icd IS 35, because this is how I decided to level tailoring.

Consider · 09/26/10, 4:03 PM

In addition to not knowing how to make a parse (or just take a screenshot of the combat log from one proc to the next), you also don't appear to know math!

Haste is about 2.75 AP/point. So 60.5 AP equivalent. If the tailoring enchant is 121 AP (once again, it isn't but hey, why not), then it's only a gain of 121 - 60.5 = 60.5 AP.

BS/JC, on the other hand, are 40 strength each. Strength is about 3 AP/point. So 120 AP equivalent. Neither of those two professions make any sacrifice for that gain.

120 is far, far superior to 60.5. Even if you're right on the ICD, BS/JC win, and the margin isn't even close.

I honestly don't even know what your second sentence is trying to say.

jbs89 · 09/26/10, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

In addition to now know how to make a parse (or just take a screenshot of the combat log from one proc to the next), you also don't appear to know math!

Haste is about 2.75 AP/point. So 60.5 AP equivalent. If the tailoring enchant is 121 AP (once again, it isn't but hey, why not), then it's only a gain of 121 - 60.5 = 60.5 AP.

BS/JC, on the other hand, are 40 strength each. Strength is about 3 AP/point. So 120 AP equivalent. Neither of those two professions make any sacrifice for that gain.

120 is far, far superior to 60.5. Even if you're right on the ICD, BS/JC win, and the margin isn't even close.

I honestly don't even know what your second sentence is trying to say.

Where does 1 Str: 3 AP? Doing some math, I realized that the maximum AP gain from JC is 92 base, and 106.6 for RotFC proc. And then we include that it is +400 AP for your Ghoul and Gargoyle summon, Id love to hear the numbers on how AP affects summons.

Kings+Ravenous = 46.3 str = 92 AP as I said, base. With RotFC procd, on 46.3 str, you get ~7 more str, equalling 53.3 Str = 106.6 AP.

So thats 92 AP -> 106.6 AP, not 120 AP.

41STR:92 AP is a 1STR:2.24AP ratio Base ; 41STR:106.6AP is 1STR:2.6AP ratio RotFC proc

So according to your logic, and the ratio of 1Haste:2.75 AP; we should all stack Haste gems because, infact, the ratio is better than even a fully proc'd DK, and he wont approach this ratio. A very large margin aye?

Now here is where when I got in previous arguments, I simply said, (ex: 100 AP and 1 haste is better than 1 AP and 100 haste). That statement is to try and do a very simple benefit assumption.

But if the numbers are correct we should infact be stacking haste gems, according to your ratios. (Considering that Unholy/Frost is lead by white damage (the best damage in the game In my personal opinion), then Im even more inclined to think that maximizing haste>maximizing AP) [ex: 2 hits at 9 dmg are better than 1 hit at 15]

Assuming the icd is correct (all the embroideries are 35 icd, if you know anyone with one just ask them, or your welcome to come to my server, Greymane, and see for yourself).

Durmiun · 09/26/10, 8:32 PM

<phew> thanks! thought maybe I was going crazy.

Amroo · 09/26/10, 9:35 PM

The damage your ghoul does doesn't scale with your AP, but does increase with your strength. So, a significant part of your damage isn't affected by AP, but by strength, which closes the gap to the 3:1 ratio in the OP. The same is true for haste.

Originally Posted by jbs89

Now here is where when I got in previous arguments, I simply said, (ex: 100 AP and 1 haste is better than 1 AP and 100 haste). That statement is to try and do a very simple benefit assumption.

But if the numbers are correct we should infact be stacking haste gems, according to your ratios. (Considering that Unholy/Frost is lead by white damage (the best damage in the game In my personal opinion), then Im even more inclined to think that maximizing haste>maximizing AP) [ex: 2 hits at 9 dmg are better than 1 hit at 15]

I don't really know what you are trying to say here. None of this matters. What matters is how much Strength or, respectively, AP you need to get your hits from 9 to 18 damage compared to how much haste you need to double your attack speed (at least in a world with only with damage).

As for your point about the embroidery: If you are unable to parse your logs, just check some other logs with people who use the embroidery and show us uptimes of 40% and more, which you should find if the ICD would be that low (15/35 = 43%). On worldoflogs it is even possible to graphically show uptimes of buffs, so you can actually see the time between the uptimes. When you come back with proof of your claim everybody will be grateful and applaud.

jbs89 · 09/26/10, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Amroo

The damage your ghoul does doesn't scale with your AP, but does increase with your strength. So, a significant part of your damage isn't affected by AP, but by strength, which closes the gap to the 3:1 ratio in the OP. The same is true for haste.

I don't really know what you are trying to say here. None of this matters. What matters is how much Strength or, respectively, AP you need to get your hits from 9 to 18 damage compared to how much haste you need to double your attack speed (at least in a world with only with damage).

As for your point about the embroidery: If you are unable to parse your logs, just check some other logs with people who use the embroidery and show us uptimes of 40% and more, which you should find if the ICD would be that low (15/35 = 43%). On worldoflogs it is even possible to graphically show uptimes of buffs, so you can actually see the time between the uptimes. When you come back with proof of your claim everybody will be grateful and applaud.

Summoning your ghoul will take a flash of your AP (not of your STR, as is said right on the first page). I understand that the talents give your ghoul %100 of your str, but the increase of 400 ap vs 41 str is frighteningly obvious, even with any sort of diminishing returns on the summons. The swordguard proc far outweighs STR bonuses.

"What matters is how much Strength or, respectively, AP you need to get your hits from 9 to 18 damage compared to how much haste you need to double your attack speed (at least in a world with only with damage)."

So your point is that...? I don't understand how you selectively treat Haste as 1haste:2.75AP. It either always is, or isn't at all.

And I really have no idea how to do anything but a timestamp combat log; and it is necessary for you to do proper rotation, or else its icd is horribly skewed (i tried just to do auto attacks so I could actually FIND the proc, and it gave me a 65 icd); so thats alot more data than Im willing to sort through tonight; I will get the numbers for you, I studied it very closely for 5 minutes; I wouldn't level tailoring to 420 on a whim.

berstuck · 09/27/10, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by jbs89

Summoning your ghoul will take a flash of your AP (not of your STR, as is said right on the first page). I understand that the talents give your ghoul %100 of your str, but the increase of 400 ap vs 41 str is frighteningly obvious, even with any sort of diminishing returns on the summons. The swordguard proc far outweighs STR bonuses.

"What matters is how much Strength or, respectively, AP you need to get your hits from 9 to 18 damage compared to how much haste you need to double your attack speed (at least in a world with only with damage)."

So your point is that...? I don't understand how you selectively treat Haste as 1haste:2.75AP. It either always is, or isn't at all.

And I really have no idea how to do anything but a timestamp combat log; and it is necessary for you to do proper rotation, or else its icd is horribly skewed (i tried just to do auto attacks so I could actually FIND the proc, and it gave me a 65 icd); so thats alot more data than Im willing to sort through tonight; I will get the numbers for you, I studied it very closely for 5 minutes; I wouldn't level tailoring to 420 on a whim.

This is an unholy dk discussion, not a frost dk discussion. You have a permanent pet. It's attack power scales with your strength. If you don't know how to use a parser, you should take the time to do so, and while you're at it browse the top dk parses on every encounter in ICC25. When you find a single world class dk with tailoring go ahead and repost.

jbs89 · 09/27/10, 1:43 AM

Originally Posted by berstuck

This is an unholy dk discussion, not a frost dk discussion. You have a permanent pet. It's attack power scales with your strength. If you don't know how to use a parser, you should take the time to do so, and while you're at it browse the top dk parses on every encounter in ICC25. When you find a single world class dk with tailoring go ahead and repost.

I dont care about word-class anything because at this point were debating literally like 50 AP probably.

And Im saying that summoning your ghoul on +400 AP is going to be a bigger increase than an extra 41 STR. There seems to be no math on the subject, but I havent searched; since this wasnt my main subject.

Plus you consider that you summon your Gargoyle with +400 AP vs +92 AP... thats a big difference; the summon benefits belong to Swordguard Embroidery

Rojali · 09/27/10, 3:57 AM

Originally Posted by jbs89

And Im saying that summoning your ghoul on +400 AP is going to be a bigger increase than an extra 41 STR. There seems to be no math on the subject, but I havent searched; since this wasnt my main subject.

Unholy's Raise Dead is permanent. It doesn't take a snapshot of your stats at summon but rather updates as combat goes on.

Siylir · 09/27/10, 7:42 AM

Originally Posted by Pathal

Hit isn't really critical past the special soft-cap. Especially once you have that much ArP, where the EP value of it is massive, dropping ArP rating and other stats for a mediocre one should mathematically be bad.

Originally Posted by Saan

Just to further elaborate off of what Pathal said: With 5/5 precision (I can't see your armory profile to see if you have 5/5, but I couldn't imagine you being a combat rogue and not have 5/5, and since you are going after armor pen, I would assume you to be a combat rogue) you only need 99 hit rating to be capped on specials (66 with a draenei). After that it just counts for spell hit, and armor pen is worth so much EP when you get to the level you have, I couldn't imagine that spell hit would be worth more.

so you two don't belive that getting spell hit cap would be worthwhile??

i guess that you don't realise that your poisons are counted as spells!

Hit [to poison cap, hit is also good after you get exp+arp caps to reduce your crit cap] > Exp [to cap] > Arp/Agil/AP/Haste [depending on gear/spec]

Jezele · 09/27/10, 8:36 AM

{Please ignore}