Thread of Ultimate Stupidity - Page 1454

aldy · 12/25/10, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by Theodos

There really are no fights in the first raid tier where you can "objectively" compare the two specs on WoL. The only tank and spank encounter per se, would probably be Chimaeron, and in this fight there are several random variables that could explain any DPS disparity between the two specs. For instance, the splash mechanic which is partially negated by AMS provides significant RP for unholy while providing none to Frost. Several top unholy parses from WoL are showing up to 600 extra RP from AMS. That mechanic alone can explain the 1-2k DPS disparity reported between the two specs on this fight. Same with a fight such as Pit Lord Argaloth, where unholy can get max RP for extended durations of this fight.

If you want a fight like Patchwerk to compare the specs, there simply is none at this point in the expansion. As mentioned before, Unholy is affected far less by movement fights as their diseases, pets and ranged ability (death coil spam) simply provide more dps during mobile phases. Additionally, the presence of magic damage on every single fight thus far compounds their mobile DPS (AMS granting more death coils to spam in many transition phases).

With no real way to realistically compare the specs in current PvE content, the only answer is to use a sim unfortunately. In doing so, I would probably add a modified figure for RP gain to reflect magic damage that can be soaked by AMS (Unholy only). However, using anecdotal evidence and parses from WoL now are pretty useless as DPS varies wildly between the two specs depending on the fight.

I don't understand this reasoning or similar ones that are echoed in other posts and have been for years. When someone asks which spec is better, saying that it varies between fights is the correct response and is the only answer. Saying that unholy wins on many bosses because it can RP soak and it suffers less from movement and that this helps on many bosses...but then going on to say that doesn't count because it's not "objective" is just silly. You can't say X wins a lot because of A,B,C, but that doesn't count because it's not fair. Those are the benefits of the spec for certain boss encounters. If the boss fights are designed to include a lot of movement, then that is how it is. I don't understand the obsession with having to "compare" specs and having have a tank and spank boss; it honestly doesn't matter at all. Theoretical is just a tool, its not the answer. What matters is the fights that actually exist in the current raid tier. You want to maximize and make your spec choices based on those, not on a theoretical, non-existent tank and spank fight. As Consider points out, it varies from fight to fight and your decisions should be based on what fight(s) are most relevant at the time. Although it will take awhile to get two gear sets, eventually dualspec switching is of course the best overall option. Min/maxing isn't that important on nights when you are clearing farmed content (except for epeen rankings), its important on those nights where you are spending a long time working on a specific boss, and in those cases, it's all about the fight mechanics. For a specific fight, the values of talents, glyphs, and overall spec change drastically from the ideal setting.
I worry people get too caught up with the sim. It's value is immense, it is an incredibly helpful tool, but at the end of the day its all about the "real world" performance and the specifics of each boss fight.

ComMcNeil · 12/25/10, 4:07 AM

I can only talk about myself, but I for one try to use 20STR/20Hit in nearly red and blue socket, because of the meta gem, where in 1 blue socket I put a pure hit gem. As long as hit is not anywhere near the hardcap without sockets, I find it more reliable to have a fast rage generation to maintain the rotation, rather than having double or tripple misses and having to wait 5 secs+ to start the rotation.
I am sure, theoretically pure STR may lead to a higher DPS rating, but in my opinion you have more time to mind encounter mechanics if you do not have to closely watch your rage bar all of the time.

Raistlin212 · 12/25/10, 5:04 AM

Originally Posted by PallyDog

The Divine Shield macro isn't working for me. It doesn't cancel the effect of the buff. I used the

#showtooltip
/cast Divine Plea
/cancelaura Divine Plea

Cast and remove divine plea so I could have the "free" WoG. It doesnt' remove the buff. I also tested it with Divine Shield. Is there another /command to remove a buff effect?

edit: beaten to the punch, Please delete.

Gardorian · 12/25/10, 5:35 AM

Hello,
I've been looking and looking and I can't seem to find a solid gear list for BiS pre-raid and raid anywhere. Some basic lists exist, but seem to be more speculation more then actually anything solid.
Is Rawr pretty accurate for fury at this point? I'm asking because it's telling me to socket Mastery/hit gems in blue sockets and is listing some mastery gear higher then crit/haste gear >.>
I know alot of development goes into these things and who am I to ask all lazily for some magic list, but realistically I am not that good with the math end of things... I warrior, low INT, must kill stuff with giant weapons /rawr
in all seriousness tho, any info / help advice would be good.
Thank you
(if you look my toon up, understand we have not started raiding yet fully and i'm still playing around with gemming/chanting and gears)

Sqeez · 12/25/10, 7:48 AM

Originally Posted by lefritz

Assuming this is true Im wondering what kind of testing there has been on continually extending the duration of a very buffed unstable affliction (e.g. heroism+eradication+pot+demon soul, ect.) I realize that fel flames dpct is very low, but it almost seems worth using it to continually refresh an unstable affliction that has been buffed. Has anyone done any extensive testing on this? Or am I just misunderstanding how extending the duration works?

Not directly replying to you, but there seems to be some fallacy rolling around this thread and your's was the last to mention it.

12/25 11:55:56.647  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,74221,"Hurricane",0x20,BUFF
12/25 11:55:58.694  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,2872,-1,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/25 11:56:01.113  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,2872,-1,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

This was the immolate ticking before hurricane proc'd it's not important to the result but it is important to the backround.
I then refreshed immolate via the Immolate spell.

12/25 11:56:01.468  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,7819,-1,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
12/25 11:56:01.468  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,DEBUFF
12/25 11:56:03.582  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,3092,-1,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

Then I removed hurricane and the 2 dark intent buffs (I roped another warlock into helping.)

12/25 11:56:05.617  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,85768,"Dark Intent",0x20,BUFF
12/25 11:56:05.883 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0x0500000002A4B26A,"Prric",0x512,85767,"Dark Intent",0x20,BUFF
12/25 11:56:05.950  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,3091,-1,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/25 11:56:06.486  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,74221,"Hurricane",0x20,BUFF
12/25 11:56:08.287  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,3091,-1,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/25 11:56:10.620  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,3091,-1,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/25 11:56:11.621  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,77799,"Fel Flame",0x24,3405,-1,36,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/25 11:56:11.621  SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,DEBUFF

The immolate debuff is refreshed by felflame without the 2 DI's or hurricane.

12/25 11:56:13.003  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,3120,-1,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/25 11:56:15.590  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,6421,-1,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
12/25 11:56:18.193  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,3498,-1,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
12/25 11:56:20.796  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0500000003607021,"Xelo",0x511,0xF13079AA000059B2,"Raider's Training Dummy",0x10a28,348,"Immolate",0x4,3504,-1,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

For those that just want a conclusion, with the buffs up and a Immolate casted with the buff up the interval between ticks was somewhere in the region of 2.337 to 2.333.
The buffs were then removed and this number dropped after immolate ticked once after refreshing via felflame to 2.603sec.

Test it yourself but atleast for my own purposes felflame is useless beyond the situations discuss. IE movement when immolate is about the fall off.

Hope I helped,

Jamezuh · 12/25/10, 8:03 AM

Originally Posted by Rijndael

PoH needs to come down or hots need to come up.

I think Blizz should go with the latter.

I wish there was no cooldown on swiftmend. Even to sacrifice efflorescence, I'd love to see it because it takes the time for a rejuv or regrowth + swiftmend, and it would have roughly the same mana cost as a flash heal. And actually, it would heal for about the same as other classes flash healing spells. This is just super wishful thinking though =D

Regrowth I believe is too crippled compared to every other classes quick expensive heal, it's just not the life-saver it should be. My nourish with a HoT up first crits for the same as my regrowth... bogus.

Tzian · 12/25/10, 8:46 AM

While i was googling for assistance with my roccat arvo (xmas pressie today) one of the results came up for here, and i thought bingo wow players with one, now i will appologise in that i am just a typical forum lurker, but ive never considered myself of the calibre to be qualified to contribute on this site.

so here is my problem and i hope that someone might be able to assist me, or the darn thing is going back from wence it came

Driver installed fine, but using the configuration tool is soooo darn slow and can take ages to respond (windows reporting it as not responding) but if you wait long enough, and i mean like as in good cook dinner long enough it gets around to it eventually

Caps lock light sometimes perm on, sometimes perm off, doesnt change when used.

number pad not working when in num pad mode

thumb buttons 1-3 set up in profiles, does not recognise the settings in game, have created specific profile for in wow, doesnt seem to recognise wow has loaded even tho i have followed the instructions on getting it to do so

ive even changed every single default profile to what i want in the hope that its using one of them all to no avail

im running windows vista 64 if thats any help

tbh im out of ideas, ive uninstalled and reinstalled and been at this darn thing for like 3 hrs now, and im close to throwing it across the room, so its going back in its box for its own safety till i get some ideas from somewhere or they open up their support again after the holidays.

would appreciate any suggestions a user of this keyboard could give me, ive never been so dissappointed as i am today, i was so happy to get this as a gift and now i have an upset relative cos it wont work for what it was purchased for.

Regards and thankyou

Tz

Azshira · 12/25/10, 9:42 AM

On the haste debate; I do believe stacking haste for faster mana returns is our best stat and indeed much more useful than mastery or crit. With stacking haste we can get in 2 HL or DL in between our next HS and judgement if needed, I find it would be impossible to get 3 HL/DL in the same time. I currently have 1300 haste (10.13%) which gives my HL/DL a 2.2 second cast time, when judged for my extra 9% haste I get the cast time down to 2.02 seconds, with a little more haste I will get these to 2 seconds exactly and I think that is a perfect number for haste, all these numbers are regardless of raid buffs and in pre-raid gear. Factoring in raid buffs and approximately 1400 haste I think my goal is reached where I will then focus on my other secondary stats, which seem to just come on gear anyway.

For those who question having more Haste will make you OOM faster, this would be only true if you never thought of mana regen which is a number 2 priority, with number 1 keeping our people alive. Smart play via correct spell usage in said situation and using judgement and holy shock pretty much on cooldown combined with appropriate ways to use your HP is the only way to do this extremely effectively as well using DP when a chance strikes. If you just came in and spammed DL for 30 seconds you will be OOM, remember Blizzard want healers to play smarter and not stick to 1 button like most of us resorted to in WOTLK with HL and in TBC FoL. Gone are those days, the newer, smarter Paladin has seen new light.

Mastery would be a lot highly valued if the 6 second shield was a longer duration, it seems only valuable if you are focused on 1 target or perhaps 2 that are consistently getting damaged. Take my example of Argaloth again. One group will only ever get hurt and that's after 1 slash, so if you healed everyone with LoD the mastery is completely useless as it will take about approximately 30 seconds before he will slash that same group, the shield has long since run its duration then. I personally value crit more than mastery in such situation so:

Int>Spirit>Haste>Crit>Mastery - would be my rule for such fights.

Mastery is only used for the tank in most scenarios, and yes that is a big deal but the shield negates little damage even if you aimed to have big mastery, you would be neglecting much more valuable stats. Now I'm not saying mastery is useless, I'm saying its value is little compared to crit in such circumstances as when your LoD crits that crit or if your HoR crits, those crits will heal the group up and overall cost you less mana before the next slash, whereas mastery will wither and die pretty much.

On several fights I know crit will overpower mastery easily. However mastery should not be completely disregarded and crit shouldn't be recieving such bad press at the moment as it is very useful, yet not quite reliable. I wouldn't rely on it in any situation, but much more useful one could argue over mastery. I would never enchant or gem for mastery, unless I need a gem to fit a slot like the orange one but there's also a haste alternative. I would also never gem or enchant for crit. I would much only allow crit and mastery to come on gear gradually ie. Tier 11, since its blatant how much Blizzard wants us to value it since three pieces have crit and two have mastery on them, but this would be reforged to haste.

gundecker · 12/25/10, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Influxreptile

I couldn't help but noticing that a poster on the previous page noted that pre-potting a mighty rage potion allows you to start your first "cycle" with inner rage up. While this is true I don't really see the use of it. Popping Battle Shout and Berserker rage every time they come off cooldown results in a net rage gain and within 3 minutes you can actually have a full rage bar.

Does this take too long? Well here's another little trick: Since Cata, when you enter an instance Battle Shout and Berserker rage cooldowns reset AND you keep any rage you had previously. So after a wipe just run in, pop both abilities, run out, pop them again, run in again and pop them a third time and you'll be sitting at 100 rage in a matter of seconds.

In an ideal setting, that sounds perfect...but in a normal raid environment, by the time the next pull goes down, you'll be back at zero.

niknar · 12/25/10, 11:59 AM

Would someone who has access to Simcraft at the moment be so kind as to put some numbers against a few things for me, please?

- the single-target dps of a glyphed/unglyphed Felguard;
- the amount of mp5 returned via Mana Feed using the Felguard;
- the dps value of Demon Soul when using a Felguard;
- the dps value of Demon Soul when using a Succubus.

Many thanks.

Influxreptile · 12/25/10, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by gundecker

In an ideal setting, that sounds perfect...but in a normal raid environment, by the time the next pull goes down, you'll be back at zero.

No, as you can simply pop battle shout every 30 seconds while you wait for the raid to get ready. Pushing one button per 30 seconds can't really be too much to ask now can it?

Kawano · 12/25/10, 2:20 PM

Haha, nice tip Influxreptile.

But even besides all that, prepotting a Golemblood Potion is still more effective then a mighty rage pot.

Thendariel · 12/25/10, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by TheJinchuuriki

This comparison doesn't count the increased movement speed as an increase for dps, but it is something to also keep in mind.

Move speed increased only apply when you are outdoors.

Odas · 12/25/10, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Thendariel

Move speed increased only apply when you are outdoors.

False. It applies indoors.

Xaoc · 12/25/10, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Odas

False. It applies indoors.

The spell details seems to think otherwise

Feral Move Speed Increase
Requires Cat Form, Travel Form, Bear Form, Dire Bear Form
Increases your movement speed by 15% while in Bear Form, Cat Form, or Travel Form. Only active outdoors.