Healing is not about spamming your best rotation for a given time-frame. It is more about decisions and reaction to something happening out there. So, while some extremes will not be valid you will never get a build that is the best for every situation. Even if we could decode the program-code for holy-priests in every detail that would NOT help us finding an overall stat-balance as you may be able to find for most DPS-builds. It depends much more on a given fight than about how the holy-priest works as a class.
There are short encounters and there are long encounters. Even if that would imply that the short encounter would favor a throughput build and the long encounter would favor a mana build that may be not the case. Maybe the short encounter would need a high number of very expensive spells (PoH/GH) so you would not be able to hold up with a throughput-build. Maybe you would need PoH/GH but would not need big versions of those, even if CoH/FH would be to small in every case (maybe because of a healing-debuff).
On the other hand there may be long encounters with short periods of very high dmg-income and long regen-phases afterwards (or a build-in-regen-buff). Vaelastrasz (or how the second drake in BWL iscalled) would be an example where mana or regen would do nothing at all even if it is a gimick-fight. (Or SoL P2 in BT even if that was a short encounter.)
Anyway while progressing you would not have the optimal set for every encounter and have to balance your best items for something. And since you would like to wear them in many situations you have to make stat-decisions.
well what do you suggest? collecting 5 different gears for each and every situation? of cause encounters are different but your gear isn't. its allways the same. so again, you have to find the most wighted gear to be able to heal in fights that need a lot of throughput aswel as fights that need endurance.
and to get this kind of gear it is possible and important to find out scalings.
additionally the comment "crit is better than haste in this or that situation" is worth NOTHING without the info how mutch it is more worth!
say something is 5 times better versus something is 0.01% better... still one thing is better but the difference is huge!
there need to be some objective numbers to rely on even if they are simplification.
Last edited by FaLLeNaNg3L : 04/27/09 at 11:40 AM.
1. I tested mutilate and combat on a hero dummy. both about 10mins und in many trys !
with mutilate i did 3200DPS and with combat 2800-2900 DPS ! Is this true ? or is combat only stronger with raidbuffs ???
my rotation 3s/5r/4-5e !!! i hope anyone can help me...
2. yesterday i tested a new specc. 52/13/6. 2 pts in MP & 2pts in TttT. on a hero dummy i did 3,2-3,3k dps easily and TttT didnt activated ! so can someone tell any experience ?
thanks a lot Romeoh !
The answers to your questions can be found on various posts amongst the forums, including the FAQ. However, to answer them more directly...
1. Both specs are about equal, Mutilate will be better in some fights while Combat will be better in others. There is no dominant spec now, besides perhaps HAT with a stacked group.
Also, it's not really wise to judge what spec will be better based off a target dummy unless you have 24 other players there with you, buffing you while debuffing the dummy to simulate a real raid encounter, even then you need to factor in movement and error that will occur in a typical fight.
The answers to your questions can be found on various posts amongst the forums, including the FAQ. However, to answer them more directly...
1. Both specs are about equal, Mutilate will be better in some fights while Combat will be better in others. There is no dominant spec now, besides perhaps HAT with a stacked group.
Also, it's not really wise to judge what spec will be better based off a target dummy unless you have 24 other players there with you, buffing you while debuffing the dummy to simulate a real raid encounter, even then you need to factor in movement and error that will occur in a typical fight.
2. See the answer to 1.
i want know, anyone tested this specc in compare to 51/13/7 ? not to combat !
is it worth, that you take 2pts ind MP and TttT and lose 4% chance to geht 25energy for 1 CP ?
1. I tested mutilate and combat on a hero dummy. both about 10mins und in many trys !
with mutilate i did 3200DPS and with combat 2800-2900 DPS ! Is this true ? or is combat only stronger with raidbuffs ???
my rotation 3s/5r/4-5e !!! i hope anyone can help me...
2. yesterday i tested a new specc. 52/13/6. 2 pts in MP & 2pts in TttT. on a hero dummy i did 3,2-3,3k dps easily and TttT didnt activated ! so can someone tell any experience ?
thanks a lot Romeoh !
Combat damage is going to be much better in a raid environment with all of its buffs. Because Mut's damage is much more nature based, its easy to get skewed results on a test dummy.
The same thing can be said for the spec you tested. Unless you have full raid (de)buffs, its extremely difficult to do any real testing for DPS. That is why we have spreadsheets and simulators. They do all the hard work for us in figuring out what spec/gear combo works out best for us.
i want know, anyone tested this specc in compare to 51/13/7 ? not to combat !
is it worth, that you take 2pts ind MP and TttT and lose 4% chance to geht 25energy for 1 CP ?
Thanks
Check a spreadsheet be sure, I would assume however that 51/13/7 would be superior as it has been tested pretty thoroughly.
Originally Posted by Xaoc
Combat damage is going to be much better in a raid environment with all of its buffs. Because Mut's damage is much more nature based, its easy to get skewed results on a test dummy.
The same thing can be said for the spec you tested. Unless you have full raid (de)buffs, its extremely difficult to do any real testing for DPS. That is why we have spreadsheets and simulators. They do all the hard work for us in figuring out what spec/gear combo works out best for us.
I assume you are referring to Combat being better in a raid vs a dummy test and not that Combat is superior to Mutilate in a raid. Just want to clear up any confusion people may have if they mis-read that.
after reading your link Dahkeus i thought about what the poster was saying a little more. im going to guess that he hasnt done some of the other fights... because hodir u take dmg, mimron u take some, yogg u take some, general the priest wont have the mana most likely... but u take some, ignis u could just run in and out of the flame lol.
Seems like it would work very well, im gonna have a priest try it with me and ill report how it goes.
Dragon's Eye is prismatic, and counts as one gem of each color (simultaneously) for meta-gem requirements. Are you sure your meta was active with the Stormjewel in place?
Just wondering, what is generally considered the 3.1 max dps spec? It sounds to me like from fight to fight there can be variance, but I would imagine ultimately number crunching should reveal what stands out as the superior specs.
I guess I'm more or less looking for a list of 1) This is best (single target), 2) This is generally near number 1 but only surpasses it in aoe situations, and 3) this is more mana efficient, still competitive, and 'fun.'
The above was more of an example of what the list could look like, I have to admit the mage class in general is a new class to me. I'm used to playing hybrids where you have a dps spec and that's where you hang out. The options between Arcane and Fire and Frostfire and now Frost etc. etc. builds is definitely something else...
Negatives of this build:
1. There is no Penance, so our "omg-fast-heal" viablilty loss.
2. There is no Pain Suppression so we have no saving abilities
3. Our PWS will abosrb ~1500 damage lesser, and heal ~300 lesser.
4. We will not have haste buff after PWS.
Positives of this build:
1. We still have all disc raidbuffs.
2. We have +5% to spirit from SoR, and ~300 spellpower from Spiritual Guidance
3. We have +4% to heal from Spiritual Healing
4. We have SoR so we can heal for a while after our death.
I think this build is perfect for stacking Divine Aegis as much as possible (GH and FH spamming with PWS on cd) so we will max our absorbation viability
Just wondering, what is generally considered the 3.1 max dps spec? It sounds to me like from fight to fight there can be variance, but I would imagine ultimately number crunching should reveal what stands out as the superior specs.
I guess I'm more or less looking for a list of 1) This is best (single target), 2) This is generally near number 1 but only surpasses it in aoe situations, and 3) this is more mana efficient, still competitive, and 'fun.'
The above was more of an example of what the list could look like, I have to admit the mage class in general is a new class to me. I'm used to playing hybrids where you have a dps spec and that's where you hang out. The options between Arcane and Fire and Frostfire and now Frost etc. etc. builds is definitely something else...
Thanks for any input.
FB/TTW and arcane are pretty competitive right now, but I'd say in general FB/TTW is doing a bit better. I haven't really had any problems with mana yet and with the burnout buff it's good enough to aoe too. Imo there's absolutely no reason to go as FFB in a 25man raid atm. You might want to switch for 10 man raids without too much support though.
Just need to clarify some things, I read most of the thread, but can't seem to find what I'm looking for. What is the cap for expertise? and by 1.5 GCD I assume then, that we're using Unholy Presence instead of Blood Presence? Thanks
Hi there i have 1 not simply question for me, cos i check there many pages, also special page for HAT and didnt find answer. Does anyone know bonus from 4pt8 procs give additional cp with Honor among thievs or nope, thank you.
Hi guys, I'm new here, there's just something I'm hoping you could help clarify for me. I'm pretty much at that point right now that I'm trying to figure out the best way to fix my gems. Currently all 5 are +16 Str, the rest are +16 ArP except for the 2 +8 ArP/+12 Sta for the Meta.
So basically I tried out the spreadsheet, and here's where it got kinda confusing for me. I compared my own profile to the default one (which I'm guessing contains all the BiS items and gems) and more or less it's gemmed for ArP, so I tested it out on mine and for some reason when I swap out my Str gems for ArP my DPS actually goes lower (according to the spreadsheet) but when I swap ArP for Str on the default profile, the DPS lowers there too. I'm just trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong, or at what point ArP trumps Str. I'd try to experiment more in game but I unfortunately lack the funds to keep swapping out Scarlet Rubies.
Ok, now, I've done the math enough to see the practical outcomes of these specs in a raid environment. This is raiding with pre-Ulduar levels of gear. I've got nearly best in slot in all of my slots barring a Turning Tide. Looking at the screenshots below you can see plainly that 0/41/30 is most certainly a HEAVY contender amongst the rankings. In standstill DPS it does pretty decent, and in movement fights it does even better. The Fel Guard is almost always on, and unlike Conflag spec movement does not destroy pet DPS. On demand DPS is nice with conflagarate, I agree totally, but the deeper you go into Ulduar you will realize you get less and less time to stand still.
I at first though that certain bosses would entirely obliterate pets. This is untrue, as I've seen several times without a doubt that pet melee DPS is very nice. Even on fights where you have to AOE the FG is always there swinging away like a lumberjack providing extra boosts in damage.
I'm collecting WWS soon enough, but the screens are below. Again, I really do think this spec deserves a solid honorable mention on the first page at the bare minimum. The screenshots below are from Emalon 10 man, XT-0002 25 man, and Patchwerk 25-Man. I believe this spec shines better on movement fights personally, I think that Patchwerk proves that. I've seen higher on "stand still" fights from other specs. When you are shifting your focus a lot though, this does come out to be near number one. I've got some 10 man hodir SS's I'll share if anyone wants to see some more. Again, working on WWS..or WMO.
Your gear has not jet reached the lvl where it becomes Str<ArP, if you keep pushing the SEP button(when you get upgrades) you can see when it is the time to gem ArP.
Still figuring out where to put my Omen and Recount, but meh. I've also switched the minimap to be where it is in the raid shot. Also trying to figure out something I'm happy with for the raid frames as well.
Solo Combat.
Party
Raid
Some addons:
oUF
oUF_Lyn
ButtonFacade
Need to Know
SexyMap
SLDataText
Chatter
ClearFont
TipTac
I am almost always top 1 dps in my guild - admittedly we are casual, not professional raiders and still not optimal (still in the process of always having the same 25 raiders, generally no balance druid etc) but the fact is that I was doing more dps than better equipped casters and that I was almost never beaten by affli or demo locks.
It is even better now with decimation.
Sometimes a fire mage suddenly blows away the dps chart on a naxx 25 boss, but on a full naxx 25 I have no problem topping charts, the competition being more often than not rogue, hunter, druid and mage.
So at the very least 0/41/30 is a decent alternative to affliction and deserves a place in the raiding compendium if you ask me, even if I wouldn't dare compare myself to a seasoned raider - just an informed one - nor compare my guild to top guilds.
I have been ttw/fire for pretty much all of wrath and I love the spec I think it can be hands down the best spec and blow everything away but that is only sometimes. For mimiron tho wws can be a little off because of phase 3 but really the other person who should be benifitting is the person tanking the boss in phase 3 since he is attacking one target 100% of the time. I am the only raiding mage in my guild atm so I don't have a Arcane mage to compare stats with but I would think it should be about = and wouldn't arcane aoe be better because arcane has more sp then ttw, and if arcane is better in single target like you say it is then the arcane mage would catch back up in phase 4 becuase he only lost marginal dps if any for him to catch the fire mage. Since i don't have an arcane mage to compare can any arcane mage post what there dps is on mimron cause i have pulled 7k on phase one just trying to see what other mages have done. ( finished at about 5k)
I have tried each of the specs listed at the top of this thread and nothing in practical use has come close to 41/30 for me. I guess "theory" shows that if you are completly perfect with your rotations other specs may out perform 41/30, but 41/30 hits hard and has a very simple rotation.
04/27/09, 11:30 AM
