Guys I would really like to see some more reports. Lets get some real in game numbers for these specs. We can theory craft all day, but we know that sometimes spec just work differently in actual play. I would also like to see the number others are getting compared to the 2H specs. Yes this is a DW thread, but that doesn't mean everyone who comes into this thread is stuck on DW and refuses to try 2H if its superior. I currently have Sigil of the Vengeful Heart, and I would like to see what other people are getting for number with the sigil now equipped. I am running numbers for 2H blood this week, but next week I will be sure to get my WWS posted in these forums.
Hey, Im just here to ask a few questions, never posted on here before and i've been following this thread.
With the gear choice i looked at the BiS Thread and the gear looks really nice but was wondering, howcome we dont use 4 piece tier 8? the bonus *increase the bonus damage done per disease by 20% on (in my case) scourge strike) with 40% bonus damage to scourge strike isn't that, well. alot?
also should i be using sigil of awareness or vengefull heart when i get it, i notice scourge strike going off more times than deathcoil and also doing more damage but am not sure which one would be the highest DPS increase.
iu se FC on my MH (malice) and cynderglacier on my OH (Dplit greathammer) should i use Razorice on my OH instead? i just noticed that it was doing crap all for damage and Cynderglacier procs can inrease my SS crits or DC crits by like 1000
This is my first run as a DW dps build i have always been running betrayer 2handed builds but yeah, any answers to those questions would be much appreciated
Last thing hehe, how is DW scaling with 2handers atm?
What? A good tank of any class in Naxx-25/just-started-Ulduar-25 gear has 40k+ with full buffs. This includes DKs, warriors, paladins, and ferals.
That said, 35% of 40k is 14k. XT002, Razorscale, Ignis, Steelbreaker, Kologarn, Auriaya, Hodir, Thorim, and Vezax all hit that hard.
It gets leapfrogged all the time. WotN is better. You can blame it on the content if you like, but I don't think that's what's going on here. It's not like mobs hitting for 40%-60% of a tank's HP pool in one swing is something new - that's been happening for a long time. In light of that, Ardent Defender kicking in once you go below 35% is simply not very good.
You do realize more HP for tanks, the more "for" my argument, hence I was using the lower end. (really, in the scenarios you mention, with boss 2 hots you anyways, is there such a difference between 35 or 40k?
Now, as to boss hitting hard, GC posted a while ago that they are looking into making the encounters so boss don't kill you *too fast* and healers has some time ot respond as oppose to their model now (boss hit harder = encounter harder).
For all the people who mentioned those boss that hitting for 60% hp (sooo, using your example, 40-60% of a tanks' hp, 20k = 60%, 33k = 100%? Why the heck were you picking on my 35k figure again? /boggle)
I understand for boss that *very often* leapforg the talent, that'll make the talent not very good.
But honestly, for a boss hitting for 20k, 15% is 3k.
You dodge 3k every 15 seconds, so you mitigate (3000dmg/15 seconds) 200 DPS at *best*. Really, I don't find it that spectacular as all you guys are making it out to be.
While every little bit counts, to a boss that hits for 20k a hit, 200 dps ... is MEH at best. Bloodworms reliable heals about 50-70%? of that amount.
Yet I don't see you like complain about blood worms? (and blood worms does dmg!!!! nerf!!! ... eh?)
To re-cap, is it better than ardent defender in those situation? I guess. Something is better than nothing right?
But far superior? I disagree, that's like as if WoTN is awesome or something, while 200 dps ... well... it's really doesn't seemed anywhere near awesome.
As for the it's more difficult, tanking in blues in na10 isn't *that* easy. I mean patchwerk can 1 shot over 50% of tanks' HP back then too. Wow, like how boss are hitting now in ulduar? aye?
Lastly, another GC post that I r too lazy to dig up, I parapharse, " If trash doesn't matter, we wouldn't include then in game".
Remember Mount Hyjai? trash was an intergrated part, and i dare say pal was quite better there than other tanks.
If you want a massive HP tank, get a druid.
EDIT: link to mmo-champion that GC talked about encounters; something about healing and can read between the lines a little and they don't just want you to spam heal because otherwise tank will die (like patchwerk) MMO-Champion BlueTracker - From a healer of 4 years
Both WotN and AD get better with higher health pools.
Will of the Necropolis is simply superior because every 15sec it has the potential to save your life.
It's not the matter of reducing incoming damage by a flat dps figure - that sounds more like modeling paladin's 100% block.
Maybe I am biased, but if WotN saves DK's life once on Snaplasher, or Assault Bot, or Vezax, it's still infinitely better in those situations than AD, because a paladin with AD would be dead.
My understanding is that with ISL, you need to life tap much much less and those GCD's are better spent on incinerates. With other specs, the mana return of LifeTap is part of why its good to do fairly often.
But I am still asking myself if the greater Incineratedmg and some GCD savings justify the loss of ca. 200 spelldmg.
Both WotN and AD get better with higher health pools.
Will of the Necropolis is simply superior because every 15sec it has the potential to save your life.
It's not the matter of reducing incoming damage by a flat dps figure - that sounds more like modeling paladin's 100% block.
Maybe I am biased, but if WotN saves DK's life once on Snaplasher, or Assault Bot, or Vezax, it's still infinitely better in those situations than AD, because a paladin with AD would be dead.
I never played war nor pal as tanks.
But since they can block, isn't it true that they *on average* takes less damage per boss hit that came through compared to a hit went through the dodge/parry for DK?
Dk gets hit less but takes more dmg per hit that went thruogh.
pal/war(?) takes less dmg per hit but can't avoid as much hits.
Think they are balance still. And I'd even agree on those examples that gets leap-frogged all the time WotN is probably better(due to it actually gets trigger...)
But seriously, "infinitely better"?
It's just opinion vs opinion on this now, IMO.
Anyhow, this thread was originally about OPness of DK tank, (which i disagree and replied). Think i'll stop on the WoTN vs AD thing as it is somewhat offtopic. =p
I still tanking with frost 14/50/7 and quite glad with that.
I completely disagree with what you have done with this spec. I see no reason you should be sacraficing HB for an extra 1% crit chance from Dark Conviction. Correct me please if there is some kind of hidden logic behind this I am overlooking.
HB is a huge contributor to keeping threat on a group along with D&D and I use it much more due to the 8 second cool down. Not to mention when it crits you cause huge amounts of damage to the group you are pulling.
The rest of the your spec is rather standard. However I am also think that skipping Lichborne can be a mistake. I am in the process of testing Lichborne in my tanking. It seems that this could be invaluable in fights where you know when the boss will cast and fear the group. By having that immunity the priest can spend their fear wards on themselves or others to keep your tanking ass alive.
Also, having only 1 point in Scent of Blood also seems to be a waste. I think this point would be much more effective in either Lichborne or Deathchill. You should be getting more than enough runic power from Chill of the Grave. If you're going with Scent of Blood I would suggest 3 points into it to make it worthwhile. To do this you would probably drop Epidemic.
i try to setup my own simulationcraft so i can adopt it when needed. I downloaded the 2288 version from google code and tried it out.
I alread read the wiki and the readme - but i couldnt find an answer to some questions so i hope you can evetually quickly help me out there:
1. in the Readme there is a Caster_T7.simcraft meantioned - but i cant find that - i guess it does a fallback on Global_t7.cimcraft or will i get false output?
2. I changed some values in warlock_t7_hit_gear.simcraft to fit my gear but i couldnt find if i need to fill in buffed or unbuffed values into gear_spell_power for example. I now used the values from the armory which are without any buffs and suppose the buffs are all added from warlock_t7_00_41_30.simcraft from the actions field - is that true?
Wanna DW Tank. Gonna try Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Rotation : IT > PS > PEST > HB then pretty much spam OB and Pest to keep diseases up. (also HB when Rime procs)
any tips and feedback are appreciated
i arena with a holy pally and i am a doing great some matches i just cant put out the burst damage like other rogues i am in assan sub spec any tips on getting more burst damage
Now we have the point, that 13/58 delivers more dps, than 3 15 55 .
But another point I am confused about is that you actually need more hit with a 13/58 specc. So couldn't it be, that you have to sacrifice such a huge amount of spelldmg/haste/crit/whatever to reach the hitcap, that a 3 15 55 specc leeds to more dps? Simply because you are not that dependent on the + hit stat.
Right now I am torn, personally. I can see clear as day that ISL build is the long-run winner, hands down. Ultimately, it will have higher deeps and far better survivability from SL. A superior build. But due to the fact that no matter how hard I try, I can't run a custom Simcraft without better explanation.
So due to the fact that I do not have 2pcs of T8.5 yet, my issue (and I'm posting this because I know there are others in my same position this morning) is whether reverting to 3.09 thinking (2pcT7 + lvl226items > 4pcT7) and roll 13/58 with Immo Glyph OR to keep Glyph of LT and 4pcT7 with 3/13/55 build?
I've been agonizing over it for the past 12hrs. Not being able to run a Simcraft is torture. I know that 4pcT7 + Glyph of LT + 3/13/55 is higher deeps for my gear set, but the question is how much higher??? I just don't know.
Because my healers have been impressed with my survivability in Ulduar with 41/30 and its 25% mitigation. Chaos Bolt builds lose that mitigation completely, but 13/58 makes up for it with Soul Leech. 3/13/55 is without a question a big downgrade in survivability in comparison to 41/30 or 13/58.
Leaving a very tough decision. If the difference in dps is <100, then I'd go ISL. If >100.......hmmm......
Saying, "That is best spec to raid with." is not only purely opinion but completely unsubstantiated. You provided absolutely no argument for your chosen spec. I am confused why you would take 5/5 convection and 3/3 unrelenting storm. It is my opinion that these are not terrible talents to max out, rather if you need them both maxed your play style is terrible. How many fights do you stand in one place and not move the entire fight? Make use of that time to Thunderstorm and get 2k mana back. Start doing this at about 90% mana and then again everytime CD is up and you are moving. If you start getting low on mana, stop using CL if it's a single target. It's DPS gains over LB is minimal anyway and with the right glyphs combined with 4pc T8, the gain is only gonna become weaker.
2 things I take that are different are Instant Ghost wolf and Improved Fire Nova Totem. There are alot of fights you can mount up for now. (Malygos, Razorscale, Freya, Sartharion, etc) You never know when Instant ghost wolf will come in handy. This is purely optional, however and these 2 points could be spent anywhere else you like. Improved Fire Nova Totem, however, I believe every raiding Ele Shaman should have. When used properly on fights like Deconstructor, you can solo an entire side of adds on your own. Drop Earthbind to root them, drop Fire Nova Totem, Thunderstorm (they won't knock back because they are rooted), at this point the nova totem will burst which will stun them, drop magma totem and begin Chain Lightning the remaining down. Again, this is an optional talent and you could use the 2 points somewhere else.
A lot of Ele Shamans like to put a 2 or 3 points into Elemental Warding. That's fine too, not a terrible talent, however, I believe that if you feel the need to use this in a raid, maybe you should look at getting new healers instead. It's not gonna make that big of a difference in the damage you take anyway and should you die without it, you more than likely would have died with it too.
So, my entire point here is that you can never say that one spec is the best spec because there are always other options to consider. Also if you are gonna make a statement like that, you better explain why you believe it is.
EDIT: I also looked at your armory page and you appear to like using some mp5 gems in your gear. I realize these are there to fulfill the meta requirement, however there are other options you could have taken instead. It all leads me to believe that you find yourself having mana issues in fights and should re-evaluate your play style.
Yes, mp5. I don't think 120hp or 8 spirit would help anymore than mp5... Do you?
And since when do Ele Shamans go oom?
I know there is no "best" spec to raid with. I was just asking why he would spec into that when we drop Totem of Wrath and have the Enhance dropping the imp strength.
I'm not trying to sound cross in any way.
I apologize for sounding that way if so.
The way I see it ... You're fretting over 2 talent points that could be used in several different places. Ghost Wolf has potential to be useful I agree with that, but my point is that specing into Imp Flametongue and SoE is completely pointless. Those talents could be more useful in other places.
How good is the T8 2 piece bonus. I have 2 piece T8, gloves and pants atm. Is it worth dropping 2 of my 7.5 pieces for them? I notice I lose about 80 hit, but gain about 100 AP and some crit, as well as the deadly poison energy ticks obviously.
I too use affliction for yogg, was at 5800 dps through phase one and phase 2 and unfortunately for some reason our guild chooses to have melee on yogg and ranged on the immortals and theyre dying at a reasonable pace to where affliction is horrible if your put on this duty. Sure I can dot up yogg and turn back around but tactically its horrible for me, makes no sense personally. I'd love to be able to DS during phase 3, and the mechanics of drain being able to turn and drain. Just wasnt able to do it cuz for the most part aside from the mages our ranged is flat out horrible. Need to teach the stupid melee to pick up the immortals.
On a side note, our ten man is pretty damn good and we're knocking out hard modes on the keepers, 2/4 very close to freya as well now. Once we get them down we're gonna do hard mode vezax. Does anyone have any suggestions for this. I only dps in the crashes as it is now and wand when outside of the crashes and my mana is usually almost always the direct percentage of vezax's health as well. How can I burn the add as well?
T7 4/5 will mostly likely be worth breaking for T8 2/5 by the time you pick up 3 pieces of T8, even if it's just T8.10. For specifics, check a spreadsheet.
So, my entire point here is that you can never say that one spec is the best spec because there are always other options to consider. Also if you are gonna make a statement like that, you better explain why you believe it is.
That is all.
EDIT: Not trying to just get in a petty argument here. (EJ won't approve!) I just want to make sure that point gets across for anyone.
05/04/09, 5:41 PM
