Thread of Ultimate Stupidity - Page 1684

rx7rash · 03/02/11, 4:41 AM

Originally Posted by jinPoul

I'm getting drastically better results in Sim while dual-wielding in unholy presence then I am from frost presence. If I was using a 2 hander this would make sense, but according to the guide here dual-wielding I should be dpsing in frost presence. Is simulationcraft broken or is it due to some anomaly in my stats?

I'm getting this in-game on dummies or any single target fight.
On AoE (3+) Frost presence is still better.

Haven't had the time yesterday to do a proper logging. Hopefully, will do it today.

Lithios · 03/02/11, 4:44 AM

Originally Posted by Soldier62994

You must be Goblin to throw them as well.

No you dont. Im a gnome and I re-rolled goblin engineering at a book in Tanaris for like 150g. Any goblin engineer can throw them.

kc0716 · 03/02/11, 4:48 AM

It seems that Haste is still not affecting our normal rune generation. Can anyone confirm that this is still indeed NOT INTENDED and blizzard intend to fix it like they said they were? (there has been many realm restarts now and no mention of this)

nca · 03/02/11, 4:53 AM

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Who's saying that the Flurry change is a nerf? That's not at all what's being discussed here. People are concerned that the change will bring problems in itemization and that stacking crit will be the so much better than the alternatives that little choice remains. Some people feel this is a bit boring.

Jugajuga, three posts above yours. I'm wondering if there's background info for his post. I kind of understand the boring bit, but there will always be one set of optimal gear, no matter how close the second place is.

Originally Posted by Gruntle

Stat weight are simplifications by nature. The stat weights that have been discussed in this thread are mostly from SimulationCraft, I'm not sure you can calculate stat weights in a more accurate way than with this tool (unless, of course, there are errors in the code). These stat weights are based on running thousands of dps simulation runs and comparing what happens when you increase the different stats. Landsouls excel sheet uses analytical approximations to do the same (at least it used to do so, maybe there's some iterations being done in that sheet too), but he's still working on the Cata version of the sheet.

Very good. Is there an agreed upon (at least, by this thread) SimCraft code to determine stat weights for 4.0.6?

Kermit · 03/02/11, 5:15 AM

Also redundant, someone wrote the exact same thing above. Please delete.

Gorh · 03/02/11, 6:11 AM

On the Fire Nova part the ramp-up seems too extreme, just one FN to 4 of them makes too much aoe dps differences. And you don't even know if targets chosen for FN will die prematurally by too much focus by others, or the target will just move away from the pack, or etc...

On the EQ part, i think they should use this spell for pvp purposes primarily. Example :
Earthquake
Instant 45 sec cooldown
You hit the ground, cracking the land beneath your feet. The enemies in melee fall to the ground, unable to act for 3 seconds. The land surrounding you stay unstable during 8 seconds, reducing chance to hit and movement speed of enemies therein by 30%.
Maybe it could share the same cd with thunderstorm.

Nessana · 03/02/11, 6:38 AM

No, if anything it will lower it because all hit after 8% does is stabilize and increase rage generation. Doubling flurry increases rage generation and stability by itself, so hit, and especially haste, are devalued in comparison to crit.

Even if hit devalued in comparison to crit, absolutely seen hit's value is increased with that changes.

lets say n are the amount of white attacks and d the average damage of an white attack and h the hitchance (for example 0.81)

so the damage for whiteattacks is : n*d*h

After the flurry buff you make more white attacks in the same time, so we call the amount of white attacks m
and since m > n

n*d*h < m*d*h

Which clearly shows one hit rating point will give more damage after the change than now.

So absolutely seen Hit gets a buff and Mastery a Nerf. Which results for me clearly to favor Hit over Mastery as SMF

TekRock · 03/02/11, 6:54 AM

With the new settings I'm not exactly sure what the standard MM settings should be. I added AS back to the rotation and have ISS Behavior set to prioritize steady shot if ISS has <= 3 sec left, AiS Behavior set to manual cast during careful aim and instant, and CS Careful Aim Behavior set to disable sting and chimera with nothing done to the standard settings for Max speed to cast AiS (suppressing AS). Disable AS while Careful Aim is active is checked as well. Are these close to what the standard MM rotation settings should be?

Soldier62994 · 03/02/11, 7:11 AM

That's what I said.

Kaljurei · 03/02/11, 7:24 AM

Jugajuga, three posts above yours.

Originally Posted by jugajuga

This was brought up in the arms thread and I feel is true.

The overall 4.1 changes seem to be a nerf to fury compared to arms, most likely to normalize arms/fury damage with the new tier of gear, since fury scales much better with almost every stat.

Actually, that was what he said. He wasn't referring specifically to the Flurry Buff, rather to the overall effect created by the Flurry buff and the Mastery Nerf.

Since now Mastery seems devalued, what would be its relative value now compared to Hit, since Nessana's napkin math shows a DPS increase if we were to get more Hit at the cost of Mastery.

EDIT : Another doubt. Since Fury gets only 2 points of Mastery, each point of Mastery now added by gear would have a better DPS increase than if we were to increase 1% Hit, figuratively speaking. Could anyone perform a mathematical calculation of this?

nca · 03/02/11, 8:00 AM

I see I wasn't very clear on this, let me try again. I meant the total of the changes; obvious Flurry buff is obvious. I meant to say that I feel the buffs (RB 100% > 120% + Flurry 25% > 50%) are stronger than the nerf (Mastery 8 > 2). This requires mathematics, but I was trying to express my gut feeling. If I find the time, I will try my hand at the math.

Molie · 03/02/11, 8:13 AM

If we look away from the Flurry buff, and concentrate on the Mastery Nerf.
I don't get, how this is getting mastery lower on our priority on stats.
The startvalue of mastery is a lot lower, but each point of Mastery, will still increase the % damage of Raging Blow with the same amount.

To make an example of my thoughts, let's say that my base Raging blow with 8 mastery as the start value, is like 150%increased damage, im not aware of the exact numbers, that's why i use some round numbers.
With the nerf to only 2 mastery. Let's say RB hits for 100% now.
If i had mastery on my gear, which increased the damage by 30%, then RB would hit 180% before the nerf, and 130% after the nerf.
But the rating on my gear still increased the damage by the same amount.

Drimacus · 03/02/11, 8:19 AM

I’m still scared of Flame Orb since it is not recognized as a periodical effect. The 4.1 changes do not change the behaviour of Flame Orb, can someone confirm this? We still need to wait for combustion to be up and running before we can use FO. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

clearsimpleplain · 03/02/11, 10:18 AM

Question: How comparable are the ilvl 359 trinkets? They seem too different to be close. I'm specifically interested in Darkmoon Card: Tsunami and Tyrande's Favorite Doll as compared to Fall of Mortality. Which two trinkets do you use when given a choice between the three?

darqueseid · 03/02/11, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by VoidStar

TL;DR - It's almost certainly better for the raid for you to be Demo.

This used to come up a lot in discussions, but frankly the answer to "is 10% vs. 6% spellpower worth more than another spec" is now very obvious and very clear from even a cursory consideration of the sim results. There are other related questions such as "should I bring an elemental shaman or a demo warlock?" or "I have several warlocks, which should go demo?" that have much less clear-cut answers, but that's not what you asked so I assume that those aren't options.

Firstly, precise stat weights can only be direclty applied to very specific circumstances (the ones for which they were generated) thus making generating precise stat weights for an entire raid essentially impossible, or at least hopelessly specific. As such one cannot "know just exactly how much 1 point of spell power helps particular classes/specs". It's generally not especially useful to do so anyway because it's the relative worth of stats that is generally important when making gear choices, but I digress.

Generally speaking, however, Spellpower is (I believe) simmed as the second best throughput stat for all casting classes (behind only Intellect). Thus, the answer to how much it helps is: "a lot". Do not forget that the effect that the spellpower has on healers is also important, but rather challenging to weigh against the personal dps gain that a non-Demonology spec might conceivably bring you.

However, the theoretical difference between the different Warlock specs is now so small that it currently sims better for you to be demo if you're the only source of the buff even if you're the only caster in the raid.

If you want some numbers, let's ignore a swathe of dangerous assumptions and use some from the Simcraft thread. You are either the 359 demo from the simcraft thread, or the best 359 in those results: Destruction. You do 23863dps in demo and you do 24304dps as the destro warlock before we take off the spellpower buff. Spellpower simmed as being worth 2.3013dps per point and you had 8597 of it when raid buffed. Losing the buff would lose you 313 spellpower, thus a loss of 719 dps, putting you at 23585dps, which is less than the demo spec. Remember: this doesn't even consider everyone else in the raid. The numbers shouldn't really be used this way, but it serves to illustrate that the buff is worth orders of magnitude more to the raid than the difference in your spec.

Now, your raid might be better served by someone else going demo, or someone else bringing an elemental shaman or many other options that only you can know or decide about, but to raid in another spec and go without a 10% spellpower buff at all is, in my opinion, doing yourself and your raid a grave disservice.

As an aside: I am astonished to hear that your fellow raiders would complain about you choosing to buff them at what they perceive to be your own expense!

They complain because they want to see higher dps numbers from me, I mean demon is pulling decent dps, but not the best. I'm coming in 4th or 5th alot-I am undergeared a bit still (still need 2% to get hit capped), but they seem to think its spec choice thats causing the drop off.

I tried to explain that the 10% SP (assuming no other buffer available) buff is more important, but they discount it, saying its only a minor dps buff for everyone at best. We have an enhancement shammy and a spriest in our raid so at least two dpsers are getting the sp benefit. I always felt that the 10% boost was the clear choice since we don't have the buff, but I didn't know the simcraft to back it up and I didn't know that its better even if I'm the ONly caster in the raid. Thanks for the numbers!

So, you touched on this but I was a little confused, is the 4% buff worth it? Is the 4% difference the numbers you were referencing? 313 spellpower seemed to be around 4% but I wasn't clear if you were saying the 10% or 4%, sorry..

just to clarify lets say you have a mage in the group or an elem shammy, would it still be beneficial to go demon for just that 4% boost? Your discussion above seems to indicate yes. Theres so little difference between the simmed specs that even the 4% boost is still worth it (Remembering that since you'd have a mage or elem shammy you have to assume at least one other person is getting the 4% buff as well plus whatever the healers get for it).