Thread of Ultimate Stupidity - Page 1706

Tyrik622 · 03/18/11, 4:18 PM

Hi all,

I don't post on here often, but I am having a hard time figuring out why FD is showing me that haste is my best stat. I have done a lot of reading (here, WoW forums, WHU, other sites) and it's a generally accepted "fact" that Crit > Mastery after a certain haste threshold, but I'm not seeing it.

Character: Tyrrik / Zul'jin

Stats from Gear
Agility: 4319
Stamina: 5039
Attack Power: 190
Hit Rating: 963
Crit Rating: 1847
Haste Rating: 1585
Mastery Rating: 392
Avg Item Level: 356.6

Pet: Gnomebreath (cat)
Buffs used: Kings / Might / 5% Crit / 30% haste buff / Stamina / 90 Agi Food / 300 Agi flask
Debuffs used: Hunter's Mark / 12% armor / 8% Spell Dmg

DPS (combined): 22215.30

I have tried lowering my haste drastically, but find it nearly impossible in my current gear setup (or with easily accessible upgrades) to get down to 757. I also have heard others quoting a number of ~950-~970 haste. I have been able to achieve this by reforging everything and changing out my enchants, although it is lower DPS overall than my current haste heavy setup.

Can someone please help me understand what I'm doing wrong in my testing? Or is it possible that haste > crit > mastery for SV? Is this because I'm not at a certain gear level? I appreciate the assistance!

Malef� cent · 03/18/11, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Keonka

Last I checked, Mastery doesn't work for Riptide ticks, Healing Rain, or EL ticks, just directed heals. It makes the biggest difference only when it's needed most. Which is nice in 'oh crap' situations, but it's very ineffectual until that moment happens. It doesn't increase the odds of maintaining AH and triggering AA, and it doesn't grant any mana regen, I am unsure, but I don't believe increase the overall amount healed by EL either.
Crit does everything. It generates mana, it increases direct heals, heals over time, triggers AH for reduced heals needed, and AA for more heals given. The best part it does all these things even better with more Haste, and yes with Mastery, but it doesn't require you to stack either to be effective.

In fact, my experience with 2 different gear levels of 85 shaman has been almost the same. Haste to softcap reforging Mastery to Crit and Haste. Once at 916 ish (buff dependent) maintain Haste for HoT ticks and cast speed else ignore it. Put everything else into Crit and Int (Gems, Chants, etc), and load the last of your stat mods to spirit. I've not been running 25's but in the few 10 Heroics roughly 20% Crit has helped more than any other stat. The Haste helps, Mastery helps, but Crit makes everything I cast work better the more I have.
The same as it did 3 months ago.

First up, just to correct you there, Mastery DOES affect Healing Rain...its easy to prove to yourself if you doubt this, just cast a HR on yourself and note the tick amounts......mount up, fly up, drop to lower health, recast....and Roberts your Fathers Brother, higher tick amounts

One thing that everyone seems to forget, which is absolutely crucial in stat allocation....is not what is "theoretically" ideal, but what is best for YOU.

Keonka, you run 10's it looks like, and therefore yes I think Crit is far more valued in that arena than in 25's. When I run 10's I go full crit and hit about 30% raidbuffed and have a very high throughput......this is because you are no longer a Niche Raid or Tank healer in 10's but more a Jack of All Trades, Master of None.

Now for people that run 25's...crit is NOT such a great throughput stat as you are healing in a totally different way, far more Chain Heals and Healing rains. In this instance there is no real set of stats that will do you well.

There are a few factors that need to be taken into account when looking at your own stat weightings.....first of all, who do you raid with. Whom you raid with will effect how you gear yourself. Secondly, WHAT are you raiding...are you a high end guild hitting Neffy HC, or are you making your first entry into HC raiding. This second difference is quite crucial!

For example, in my personal experience I am doing HC Neffy, I therefore stack spirit through the eyeballs, then go haste, then mastery with Crit just taking whatever is left. Now some people think that this gimps your own personal throughput.....but they could not be more wrong. Yes I could probably hit harder with my heals.....but I could then hit no where near as often. Its that point that is vital. This also has the added effect of being able to regen a significant amount of Mana for the rest of the healer team and again really helps the entire guild. I am NOT a regen bot as I have often read, because I more than pull my weight as I can keep cranking out those heals when other can not.....it makes a vast difference.

This may not be for you, I am also in a healer team which has a few druids, and their blanket coverage certainly helps. but I think that this would be the same regardless of the other raid healers tbh. The key here is longevity, if you are a meter whore and look after every wipe, then you are not going to be cracking out all that great......but raiding is not about how well you do on the wipes it about how you do on the KILLS.

Here are a few of the logs to illustrate the point:

HC Omni: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

HC Chim (does not count as much due to OP EL) World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

For my experience I personally advocate going high spirit, if your raid makeup can aid you in this.

I would then also go for Haste as much as possible, I have never encountered a fight where a bigger heal would have stopped a death, but many times where a faster one that lands before an incoming dmg has done so. One of the argument against Haste is that it can burn your mana faster.....so again back to the spirit.

It is all down to how you play, and what you play....and what is important to you. By going full spirit I am of course also helping the other healers output more, which from a personal meter perspective is not ideal for some. From an overall guild perspective it is extremely advisable.

We as a class suffer from a lack of solid stat weighting......this works for me, it may not work for you. But I do emplore you all, to NOT dismiss it out of hand, try it, see if it works at your current progression level and then adjust it accordingly.

Can't link to Armory from the side due to the odd i in my name, therefore: Malef�*cent @ Stormrage - Game - World of Warcraft

I should add that I use Alch Stone normally instead of Jar - Jar used on Neffy HC to increase Mana regen and MTT output for the raid as a whole on this fight specifically.

brettaminer · 03/18/11, 8:32 PM

ok i appologize if i missed this. i read through all of the posts and did not see an answer. currently i am glyphed:

Prime:
Rip
Shred
Berserk

Major:
FF
Rake
FB

Now from all of the posts i've read it seems that being glyphed for FB seems to be a dps loss as u really don't get a chance to use it much anyways not to mention the dmg comparison to shred. so what would be the next best glyph to replace it with seeing as how the other choices are pretty much whatever. i was thinking about glyphing for FC is that extra 2 second cd really worth it or should i just glyph towards something more useful to the raid i.e. innervate or rebirth instead?

Palioh · 03/18/11, 9:17 PM

Originally Posted by greenstriker

For any Enhancements on Sinestra: I was thinking about replacing glyph of WW with glyph of Lightning bolt because looking at logs I saw that my LB damage was near identical to my LL damage due to the fact that we spend over half of the fight in either Bloodlust or Essence of the Red (maelstroms stack significantly faster). When I simmed this it turns out that it IS better to replace WW with LB.

...though I wasn't sure if going 3/3 concussion was going to be better than a 2/3 precision. I'll have to sim that too. For any that have done the fight it's actually hard to not be hitting a 5x maelstrom within a GCD, and often times I hardcast at 2/5 or even 1/5 depending on what's on cooldown.

Make sure you're simming the time you have with the buff along with the time that you are without it. Never really considered it, but sounds like a decent idea.

Leafkiller · 03/18/11, 9:39 PM

Get the FC glyph. Chimaeron, Cho'gall, Valonia/Theralion, Nef/Ony all allow you to FC from melee range on cooldown. On those fights, the glyph can optimally contribute up to an extra 150dps.

brettaminer · 03/19/11, 12:19 AM

i have been searching every where and have yet to find a definite answer... hit cap for dual wield frost dk's is it 8% for spell (factoring in 3% from NoCS) and 24% for melee? for raiding normal and heroic... will someone please squash this once for all.

tangedyn · 03/19/11, 12:59 AM

What Leafkiller said, but you should also drop Glyph of Rake too and take Glyph of Rebirth.

Snak · 03/19/11, 7:25 AM

Hi I'm using Rawr to *optimize* my gear.
It's working fine but i don't understand why the 4 piece set bonus from t11 is a ~ 491 dps loss.
Can I set another value to the set bonus?

I'm sure a 10% faster cast of Fireball is no dmg loss so it must be a bug or it simulates that I'm going oom etc. I don't know.

How do you handle it? You just equip the 4 items and tell him that you have no other items in these slots?

Thx for help

frank4g63 · 03/19/11, 11:29 AM

Looking at the sim BIS chardev templates - enchanting / inscription are BIS prof's for both 359/372 profiles.... chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm chardev 8 - WoW Cataclysm

My question is, armorying multiple toons on these forums on whom I have come to rely on regularly for invaluable info (no bs, long time lurker, THANKS) - I don't see any that actually have these 2 professions on any given toon. Maybe one or the other, but not both. I've armory'd probably 6+ toons so far.

I'm debating switching from tailoring/enchanting to inscription/enchanting (I'll be simming my personal differences with the prof changes when I get home from work tonight, im assuming (?) they'll be a dps increase based on the BIS profiles) soon - but not seeing some of the theory crafters / etc using the BIS prof's obviously makes me hesitate.

Are the BIS profiles correct? What am I missing here? Thanks...

EDIT: and in the destruction post, tailoring is BIS? I understand the proc numbers etc, but this doesn't follow the BIS profile info either.

Belle76 · 03/19/11, 11:38 AM

Tg has been my spec since wolk and i have recently changed to smf to compare differences but until I got my hands on 359 single hands it was no comparison. I have respecd but now am having some difficulty figuring out which stats will give me the best dps chance. I have been stacking crit after the 8% hit but unsure about how much strength/ap i should have. I feel that trying to stack my crit I have sacraficed ap and may have just voided out the advantage of having the higher crit.
I have driven myself crazy the last few months reforging/regeming/researching and am hoping for a little direction.

chinoquezada · 03/19/11, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Whitefyst

It is not that hard, and next week when I have the time, I plan to do it for my own benefit for about 125ms case. I will create a post for it when its done in case people are interested.

(This goes without saying as you are always very thorough) Try to be as detailed as possible on how you do the analysis so that another could tailor it to his/her personal latency numbers.

Fwip · 03/19/11, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Fwip

Does flurry still reduce rage-per-swing when it is active?

I don't mean to nag, but does it? I thought this would be a pretty easy question to answer for the number crunchers here.

Malef� cent · 03/19/11, 2:22 PM

itzFrank, glad that it helped.

In 10 mans I would suggest going for crit over mastery. I will explain why. First up, in your setup you have a Pally, Priest and yourself, you are therefore going to be spliting your time between Tank Healing and Raid Healing. In 10's there is not much use for HR, but a lot of use of Riptide - Mastery does not effect RT ticks at the moment. So that is one aspect. Also at your level you will also find that your targets are not going to be on to low health. Mastery works best when people are lower HP values. Now in a 25m raid there are often many people on low health that need to be healed up that inflates the effect of mastery there. In a 10m environment this is not so much the case as you will have 3 healers for 10 rather than 6/7 for 25.

On top of this as you are also only doing regular raids, there are not to many instances where there is significant Raid dmg going out that requires uber healing output to people on very low health amounts. You will be mainly (or should be) healing one of the tanks, keeping Riptides up on three people (even if they are on full health btw at the time of cast, throw it on them, last 21 seconds and costs next to no mana so they may get hit in this time, not to mention that it gives tidal waves proc to you. In Normal modes you can get away with chain casting Healing Waves, on your tank with ES meaning Crits here carry a very large punch for their Mana cost. This will allow you to then throw out the GHW if they are needed.

Often my rotation on normal 10's was RT, HW, HW, GHW. Now you can adjust this of course depending on the dmg that is being taken by your tanks and fellow raid members, so swapping a HW for a GHW will not suddenly cause you to go oom. The key here is remembering to RT on CD.

Crit will help you in all the ways that is mentioned, A) Throughput on your heals B) Regen from the WS Procs that you will get C) AH procs from those heals that crit then hit those people that need it, very useful in 10 mans.

Mastery is a good stat, it can not be ignored, but I would advise you mate to get haste to 916, then reforge to Crit rather than mastery and you will find you will punch well above your weight. I would also suggest the following for you personally:

1) Add a belt buckle for an extra gem slot

2) Enchant both your head and Shoulder - Or make getting that rep a priority to obtain these asap

3) reforge your Head, Neck, Back, Relic, Belts, Boots and Ring BACK to their original Crit rating will give you an extra 348 crit raiting or almost 2% more crit.

4) In addition, reforge your Shoulder from mastery to Crit

5) You next weapon, or even your current one, amend from hurricane to heartsong, I don't think powertorrent is going to be worth it quite yet, but either of those will do, hurricane is a no no.

6) You have the wrong Meta in also bro, perhaps a hold over from Elemental I would imagine, but you need +54int +2% max mana rather than +3% crit dmg.

7) Finally two minor point, your legs are quite good, if possible invest in powerful ghostly thread as you are not likely to upgrade those for a while. Also put a 40int gem in your belt over a 30int one.

If you do all of these, you will find your output increases quite a bit with zero change in gear, just a slight tweak of what you have. The main point being that for Normal 10's Crit is better than Mastery regardless of what the math models may say, in the real world you will notice a difference.

Hope this helps.

Methusula · 03/19/11, 7:17 PM

Originally Posted by Kyr205

Haste affects LB as well. Given from the information, I can't tell whether or not that is the problem you are encountering because the only listed numbers are SP, Mastery, and tick values. Since LB would be ticking faster with haste, the dps value would increase even if you weren't getting another tick out of the LB. At least I believe so.

Yes, because he would be reapplying it more frequently.

Soren · 03/19/11, 8:04 PM

I reforged some stuff into haste, reducing my mastery and i've noticed a dps loss that i cannot explain :/.
Also i am confused about the changes to the felhunter and if it's better than succubus after 4.1.

Edit: Also, i raided without using fel flame to refresh UA and i noticed a decrease in my dps. So i started using it again and got at the same levels i was before >.<.