No, I'm pretty sure you're on the wrong website for that. >.> There is a reason many Blood DKs rerolled DPS last tier (including myself), that doesn't mean that they didn't enjoy it anymore, this forum is meant to be a discussion board for the people who like to min/max. Having a Blood DK tank doesn't fit into that picture if you're at the cutting edge. Can it be done? Sure. Is it optimal for learning cutting edge bosses? Hardly. Can it be fun? Definitely. Every DK that MTs stuff on their DK on new Heroic content when they have a Prot Paladin alt available is insane and is just holding their guild back.

That isn't QQ either, it's just the way it is, I've accepted that. I could tank on my DK and do well, but there'd still be downsides to using my DK over my Paladin, hence why I don't do it. I'm gonna guess this is the case for the majority of the Blood DKs that have raided up to this point on heroic content.

i think arms is the way stronger then fury as i see..

what fury got else for CS? and i dont think that WS will replace CS and SLAM dps output..

First, there is no diminishing return on haste, it will alway give you the same exact amount of output increase per percent. And even without factoring in procs like Daybreak or IoL 1% haste will increase you maximal output by 1% (as long as you haven't reached the softcap at 3489 hasterating). Mastery on the opposite give 1.5% more output per point, but not affecting all healing. So in the case of HR the HoT-part of the healing done is at about 60%, so 1 point mastery only increases HR's output by 0.9%. This and more needed combatrating for 1 mastery (179.xx masteryrating per point vs. 128.xx hasterating per percent) should proof, that haste is better to increase our output than mastery.

please delete

You said the value of haste would diminish...

So with 100% haste all casts would need 100% less time to cast... or just half the time?

One point mastery or 1.5% more absorb needs ~179 rating, where one percent haste needs only ~128 rating. As your total amount of available rating on gear is limited, it indeed means that more expansiv conversion ratios will result in less healing

Please, just read the whole text and espacially the part where it's mentioned that one point mastery will result in 1.5% more output, but only if all healing would be affected. With just 60% of our healing effected by mastery, one point mastery or ~179 rating will just give you 0.6% more healing (yes there is a minor miscalculation in the other post).

Look at some WOL-Logs from the PTR and you'll see that the HoT's proportion of is at about 60%.

Yes, I did please look it up in a dictionary and read again.

You do not understand the concept here. If you would cheat to get 12800 haste rating (100% rating from gear) the cast time of radiance would be ~1,06 seconds.

Yes for 1%(128) haste and 1.5%(179) absorb put this in consideration.


Skipping because you're only repeating yourself.

You can use your own logs for example:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Show events where target is Trevoos and spell is Holy Radiance (remove, copy)
Show events where target is Lousen and spell is Holy Radiance (remove, copy)
Show events where target is Ountytwo and spell is Holy Radiance (remove, copy)
Myth 01-11 19:19 Finalityx Morchok 25N (05:15)
1150155 21.1 % <-- First heal
818746 15.0 % <-- Hot

You may notice uptime is in the first line even thought it's the first heal, well WoL is not perfect.
You'll see that my numbers are correct and you misread the log.

Quick question for anyone, haven't been a rogue for that long, or i did, but i just started to raid.
I have a 372 iLvl and 3pc set (went on a break for 5 months and missed the FL launch).
My question is the following: I'm doing 20-23k of DPS (depending on wich boss, Bethilac 21, Baleroc 23/24, Ryolith 15 [most of my dps is on the legs anyway] ), and i'm feeling like it could be muuuch higher than that, but i know im doing mi rotation right (opening with Garrote, Mutilate, Rupture, SnD, Mutilate x2 and Envenom, and so on). What in the hell i'm doing wrong? Seems to me that im missing 2 o 3k dps and i do not know how to improve it.
If im just beeing paranoid, i apologize in advance.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to read this.

I'm sorry, but I don't really see what you're trying to post about. Speaking from a scientific report point of view, there doesn't seem to be any aim, nor conclusion to your massive post. I read maybe a quarter into it before thinking "I have no idea what he's talking about".

I can only assume that you're doing some odd analysis of the T13 2pc bonus, but outside of that you don't seem to be making much sense.

Yes I've said exactly this multiple times. You just fail to understand how this works.

First of all that quote is out of content, but what is written is still true since the effectiveness of haste is less with HS than HR. Because the base GCD caused by HS is less then the 2.5 seconds base cast time of HR.

I see through your whole post that you fundamentally can't grasp the concept of haste. (I don't even want mention healing vs. throughput)
The formula for cast time reduction is: New_Cast_Time = Base_Cast_Time / ((1 + (Haste_Rating / 12805)) * Modifier)
If you look at how New_Cast_Time behaves in comparison to Base_Cast_Time you will notice, that the more haste you get, the smaller the difference. You get always the same amount of haste per rating but not the same reduction. Hence the more haste you get the less valuable is haste. Meaning the value of haste is diminishing as the does behave exponential. You could also call it an inflation of haste.

You are probably confusing yourself with the difference of mastery/mastery rating. Neither 128 haste rating nor 179 mastery do mean 1%/1.5% more healing. You were talking about item budget there and items do contain the same amount of mastery rating as haste rating. So you assume since you need more rating it results in less valuable. But fail to notice that 1.5% will be more total throughput than 1% haste. You cannot look at this out of context as haste has a different value for HS than HR for example. You cannot calculate the value over all heals assuming the behave the same, you have to factor each and how they behave in contrast to other spells.

Again I stated not affected heals earlier and it's relevance, please look at my previous posts. And again 1% haste is not equal to 1% healing since you do not cast 1% faster but need 1% less time. And see above...

I did say in an earlier posts that I indeed did factor this and that the value of mastery will be higher either way. You may did even not consider the high amout of haste you need for the 5th tick. And for aoe healing you should really think about how valuable LoD is.

Let me tell you that your calculation is not only a mathematical nightmare, but completely wrong. First of all we are talking about the gain of mastery vs. the gain of haste since the log does not compare minimum haste/max mastery to max haste you can't use the numbers in this context. You can only see the raw difference between the HoT Part and first heal in the log. You learned already that you were wrong in this point, so you left it completely out.


To give a real world example it's like you tell me how much fuel I use per 100 miles without knowing my car. And you try to give a comparsion between speed/consumption. It's just not possible.


@thatbox
What formula do you mean?

Just to cut it short: Ivald go back and read where it started. Shockadin says it clearly and correctly, but you misinterpret it continuously. On pretty much all of the points.

1% haste (~128 rating) will always give 1% more output (in the ideal setting), as it allows you to cast 1% more heals over a set period of time. It does not diminish.
1 point of mastery (179 rating) will give you 1.5% more absorb, but in the case of HR the only a portion of the spell is affected. A rough 60% of the spell will not get affected by mastery, making haste superior - since it's fully affected by haste, and the additional ticks are just an extra.
And then consider when the absorb is wasted (AoE damage that occurs less often than 15sec), etc.

This will be my last reply regarding haste vs. mastery. If you want to, feel free to send me a pm.

It's seems, that you just really don't understand what haste does. So, every percent of haste let you cast 1% more spells in a given time. If you can cast 100 DL in T seconds 1% more haste will result in 1% more casts in the same time, so you can cast up to 101 DL in T seconds. As you posted the correct formula to calculate how the cast time is affected by haste, we can look at it with real numbers.
With 0 haste, neither from gear nor from buffs, it would take 250 seconds to cast 100 DL, but with 100% haste we could cast 200 DL in the same time, so the amount of cast would increase by 100%. So, I hope you understand, that 1% haste will result in 1% more casts in the same time, which is equivalent to 1% more healing done in the same time, which is equivalent to an increase of HPS by 1%. There is no decreasing value in haste, only the absolut decrease of the cast time will diminish, but the procentual gain in additional cast in a given time will be the same, no matter how much haste you have.

Assuming you will now understand, that 1% haste is equal to 1% more healing done (ignoring overheal, but doing this also for mastery) you can calculate how much of your healing must be affected by mastery, so it will be better than haste.

c * 1.5/179 > 1/128
192 * c > 179
c > 0.9323

So, unless at least 93.23% of the healing is affected by mastery, haste is better. And that does not consider, that more haste lead to more ticks of HR, which do not benefit from mastery!