Thread of Ultimate Stupidity - Page 1929

Pyryte · 01/18/12, 1:35 PM

I thought they removed ignite munching?

Henqetnetjer · 01/18/12, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Deathgrowl

I am swinging 2x normal Gurthalaks for my TG. I have both normal versions of Ataraxis, Cudgel of the Warmaster and Experimental Specimen Slicer in my bags. When I use Landsoul's spreadsheet there really isn't huge DPS difference, 0.31% difference when using the mace or axe. My raid DPS is decent not where I would want it though. By using the same weapon in MH and OH am I gimping my tentacle procs? Would I be better served swinging one normal and one LFR to benefit for more procs, and would this increase in procs really be a game breaking difference in my current DPS?

Thanks for reading this and any constructive comments you may make.

I have not had a chance to grab a second normal version gurth yet to do my own testing. I am currently swinging the normal in my MH and lfr in oh. I have so far seen my highest dps in that combination, though again, no personal testing with dual normal versions.

I believe the resulting information from the tests a few posters were running was that two different ilvl gurth will provide the highest dps...outside of fights where the burst is necessary and rng on tentacle procs cannot be risked.

I may have completely misinterpreted this information, so someone please do correct me if I have misunderstood

Esarael · 01/18/12, 2:54 PM

They made it so DoT crits will not proc Ignites. DoT critting was one of the worst ways Ignite got munched, because DoTs crit for low damage, compared to a Fireball or Pyroblast crit. But no, they did not remove Ignite munching in all of its forms.

Pyryte · 01/18/12, 3:56 PM

Alright yea thats what I was getting confused with. Alright I'll sift through my logs and see what I can find.

testthewest · 01/18/12, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by willem11

On topic of the opening cast-sequence.

Remember pyroblast has a higher crit chance and also puts up the pyroblast debuff on the target. It would be interested to model if this higher crit chance (higher chance for a hot streak and a great combustion right at the start) and putting the pyroblast dot up at the start of the fight is better then the scorch opening.

Well it seems quite easy: Both spells apply the 5% critdebuff on the target.
Rawr tells me the following values for the spells (with my char of course):

Pyroblast: 31666,21dps, 2,78 sec casttime (no Pyro DoT dmg included)
Scorch: 22501,01 dps 1,19 sec casttime

This leads to an average dmg per cast: Pyroblast: 88032 dmg ; Scorch 26776 dmg
This means: Your added 2sec volcanic potion must bring more than 61256 dmg.

My Fireball casts in 1,99sec. 1200 int will not increase the damage of the spell by that amount (by far!), therefore Pyro-opening should yield more dmg.

(This all doesn't account for the Pyroblast travel time. I can start my 2,78 sec cast 3,5sec before pull, because the impact isn't instant like scorch ones is.)

Pyryte · 01/18/12, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by testthewest

Well it seems quite easy: Both spells apply the 5% critdebuff on the target.
Rawr tells me the following values for the spells (with my char of course):

Pyroblast: 31666,21dps, 2,78 sec casttime (no Pyro DoT dmg included)
Scorch: 22501,01 dps 1,19 sec casttime

This leads to an average dmg per cast: Pyroblast: 88032 dmg ; Scorch 26776 dmg
This means: Your added 2sec volcanic potion must bring more than 61256 dmg.

My Fireball casts in 1,99sec. 1200 int will not increase the damage of the spell by that amount (by far!), therefore Pyro-opening should yield more dmg.

(This all doesn't account for the Pyroblast travel time. I can start my 2,78 sec cast 3,5sec before pull, because the impact isn't instant like scorch ones is.)

I think you're calculating the dmg incorrectly. You don't multiple the dps by the cast time. Think about it rationally. Are you trying to tell me your Pyroblasts hit for 88032dmg on a non crit? I don't think so.

Also, the extra 2 seconds of volc pot doesn't always mean '1 extra fireball', it could be that you combustion right as the volc pot is about to fall off, at 1 second for instance. If you combustion then, without the extra 2 seconds of volc pot, it wouldn't get the boost from the int. There is a lot more that goes into these calculations than the math you're providing.

KroLeXz · 01/18/12, 4:46 PM

maybe I'm lucky, but I cant even remember the last time I had an ignite munched. Even on warlord or yosaj where we basically inside the hit box, my ignites dont get munched in those situations but added.

tjl1982 · 01/18/12, 5:03 PM

What is the optimal Execute Phase rotation for fury warriors now in 4.3? As execute is hardest hitting ability we have and our 4pc procs off of BT instead of RB now, would we want to use a BT-Exe-Exe spam w/ CS on CD as Fury to gain extra procs off of Gurthalak MH/OH? And if SMF, would we even want to include BT into rotation for execute phase? The damage gain from 4pc proc wouldn't outweigh the damage lost by using BT over Exe.

rh8452 · 01/18/12, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by Pyryte

I'm not saying you can impact a feedback buffed combustion itself. i'm talking about the ignite from feedback. You can wait until after the feedback phase is over and then combustion with the feedback ignite still rolling, then impact that onto tombs. As long as you combustion with that feedbacked ignite you still gain the dps from it, even if you get tombed, you still have a very good combustion ticking, and if you don't get tombed you can impact it to them for 3 ticks. I have a WoL of me doing that exact thing. I'll dig it up once I get home from work. I combusted 2 seconds after feedback fell off, using the feedbacked ignite, it provided a huge combustion and then I impacted it to the tombs and got 3 ticks of it on them.

As has already been said, there is no "feedback buffed combustion" per se, it's combustion using feedback buffed ignite. We know that.

Now, if you -can- do this and everything lines up, sure. But you're talking about having the incredible RNG of:

- Good crits towards the end of the feedback buff to have feedback ignite rolling for several seconds thereafter
- Combustion being off CD at that moment
- Having impact already procced when tombs spawn as the GCD for blast wave to proc impact costs you time and may not guarantee an impact proc, especially on 10-man
- Not getting put in a tomb yourself

That's a lot of gambling and praying for stars to align.

I don't think it's something people should intentionally aim for. You'll nearly always do more overall damage by combusting when you get a really good (60k+) ignite during feedback, or spreading a full duration (but non-feedback buffed) combustion onto tombs. Especially on 25-man. The math is as simple as

combustion on 7 targets, 3 ticks on 6 tombs / max ticks on hagara = 3 x 6 = 18 + 12 = 30
combustion on 7 targets, 8 ticks on 6 tombs / max ticks on hagara = 8 x 6 = 48 + 12 = 60

Your combustion would need to be twice as good using feedback ignite, -and- all the stars would have to align as stated above, for you to do the same DPS as you'd do just impacting a normal combustion onto all the tombs and getting an average of 8 ticks off on each before they die (6.7 seconds).

Pyryte · 01/18/12, 5:23 PM

That is true on 25 man. On 25 man I think it would be more dps to just save for when tombs are coming out and get the best combustion you can prior to the targets being picked. If you're picked, just combustion asap with a good ignite/everything else. If you aren't picked, hold off a little bit so you can get more ticks on the tombs.

On 10 man however, I think combusting during feedback is probably the best bet.

Regardless, this all stemmed from whether you should combustion at the beginning of the fight. If you combustion at the beginning, as you suggested, it won't be up for feedback or tombs if you have a lightning phase, unless you do your lightning phase incredibly slow. If you have a frost phase, and go through it extremely quickly, it still may not be up in time.

Using that logic, it's not a good idea to combustion at the beginning. You have a 50% chance of it absolutely not being up for feedback or tombs, and a portion of the remaining 50% depending on how fast your frost phases are, of it not being up for feedback or tombs during frost phase. I think it would be silly to combustion at the beginning given the % chance you have of it not being up for those phases, being on top of the dps charts at the beginning of the fight is not that important.

rh8452 · 01/18/12, 5:45 PM

You can (usually) tell whether frost or lightning is first from the buff on her axes before pulling.

Our lightning usually goes a little under 30 seconds from the time she goes immune to the time she gains the feedback buff, give or take a second or two. The add takes 2-3 seconds to spawn, about 8-9 seconds to kill, and the chain takes anywhere from 10-15 seconds to complete from the add's death. There's also a 1 second window from the moment she emotes where she is still immune to damage.

On 25-man frost always goes long and lasts more than a minute. I agree you need good RNG with 2pc stacks to combustion tombs if lightning is first and you combustion at the start, but I've done it before.

stinkbutt · 01/18/12, 6:00 PM

You can absolutely tell whether frost or lightning will be the first phase from her axes. What's more, you can reset her by body-pulling --> vanish or feign death over and over until you start at the phase you want to start at.

From what I understand, you cannot IB out of a tomb, but can you IB before the tomb lands to resist the effect? Can anyone confirm this works, or confirm that it doesn't?

tenub · 01/18/12, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by Pyryte

You can wait until after the feedback phase is over and then combustion with the feedback ignite still rolling, then impact that onto tombs. As long as you combustion with that feedbacked ignite you still gain the dps from it, even if you get tombed, you still have a very good combustion ticking, and if you don't get tombed you can impact it to them for 3 ticks.

Also, in my 25 man heroic hagara kills our lightning phase lasts about 19-21 seconds, not 30. Not sure how you guys handle the conduits but we use a plus sign and once that add dies it takes about 5-6 seconds for all of them to activate.

What do you think this is ICC with 70%+ crit or something? I hope and pray I get any ignite at all during feedback every week and it's usually to no avail. You're telling us to somehow manage a fat ignite by essentially critting back to back (within the feedback window at least), not get tombed, and combust then spread to the tombs. I don't think you realize the chance of getting even a single ignite near the end of feedback is maybe 1% and then you have to somehow not get tombed. It's simply not going to happen unless we get back to ICC crit ratings. Please do not give bad advice. It's best to hope for a fat ignite during feedback and use combustion then if you manage so; otherwise try and get a decent one on Hagara then spread to the tombs.

On a side note where's your H:Hagara log? Rather, where's your H:Hagara achievement? I'd like to see your incredible luck and drool over it.

doran · 01/18/12, 6:35 PM

You can use IB before it lands but you will still get it, however you won't take any damage until your IB fades, so if your raid has trouble with ppl dying in the tombs you can reduce the damage with this trick.

mowgles · 01/18/12, 8:20 PM

Anyone finding it very hard to maintain a decent haste rating after getting geared up in DS? In all DS gear, i'm sitting at 1564 haste and 2173 mastery. That's with having to reforge some pieces to expertise to keep up to 26 and never reforging off haste to mastery.