What are the best glyphs the BiS MM spec, i am using Srp, KS, and SS glyphs. Any help would be really nice, MM dps last night was really nice, i had no mana issues, so blizzard definitely fixed it.
Valtiel everything you said is true. However it does not take away the fact that Frost is currently the worst tree and the only thing that makes it viable is really an OP Glyph. Sadly Frost is broken and it will probably be fixed in 3.2 and remade into a DW-tree.
I agree that it would make more sense to make Unholy or Blood the "DW-tree" due to the nature of these trees but the thing is that they way they are now they are preforming very well in Ulduar and thus remaking them is not "nessecary".
If you see it from a Blizzard point-of-view it would make more sense to make Frost-DW viable. You don't take something working, break it and rebuild it when you have something broken and begging to be re-built. But that said it's all just speculation. We never know what they have in mind. It could really be that they're buffing Nerves of Cold Steel insanely much to make DW-viable, though I hope it's something more intresting.
So, because the frost tree hasn't found it's sweet spot and best rotation yet (because it has a lot more options than unholy and blood) you automatically jump to saying that frost is the worst of the trees. There have been a number of people who have posted very good results with frost, but because 90% of the DK base is either unholy or blood because those trees already have "optimal" rotations everyone automatically assumes that unholy and blood are just better. Of course nearly all of the "Best DPS" reports are going to be unholy or blood when 98% of the DKs in high end raiding guilds that aren't tanking are unholy or blood. It's simply an issue of scale, statistics and proportions. When you have as much possible deviation in damage as DKs do because of crits, then if you have 1000 people playing unholy and 1 playing frost then obviously one of those 1000 people is going to go far beyond the standard deviation and post some ridiculously huge numbers while the 1 person trying frost has very little chance to break outside the standard deviation for that spec. There are simulations made and those take into account a huge number of facts but it's impossible for them to really simulate in-game situations like movement, multiple mobs, burst times, etc. Therefore you should listen to the word of those who are performing well (even if just in their standards) and glean information from it that you think is legitimate and ignore what you think is biased then test yourself and see how it performs for you.
With that said, it's not constructive to come into a forum where people come to discuss optimizing a preferred tree and saying that tree isn't competitive and it's all futile. The purpose is again to optimize what we have and if Blizzard changes the tree to be a DW tree, then people will once again test and see what's optimal again and again as long as things are being changed. It is completely against the goal of this entire forum to bash a spec and say we shouldn't do anything until Blizzard changes it. It doesn't matter if we are competitive from an "OP-glyph" or broken talents or efficient rotation. The goal is to maximize what we have with what we were given and if your results aren't to your liking then you have the option to try something else. I come and read this forum because even though I'm not able to play currently due to work-load, I still like to keep up with what the new rotations/BiS and such so that when I do play again I'll have ideas about what to do and it is aggrivating to have to filter through trolling in order to get to where people are actually showing sims/math/testing/theory on what I actually came to the thread to read. So please, if you're going to troll, then at least show math supporting your trolling so as to be a productive yet discontent member of society.
Okay, I am a long time reader of Elitist Jerks, and I can’t seem to find the answer to my question anywhere. I read some where that the 2 piece t7.5 has some EP value around like ~75 or so and the 2 piece t8.5 has an EP value of like ~85. I just got my 2nd piece of Tier 8.5 and want to know if it makes more sense doing ( 2p 7.5 / 2p 8.5 ) or if I should just keep my full t7.5 4 piece bonus until I get my 4 peice t8.5 to replace it... (b/c the 4 piece t7.5 bonus was listed as having like a EP value of ~380 or something?) It seems like even with the extra EP value you get from the upgraded gear, still doesn’t offset the (2piece+2piece ) instead of the full 4piece t7.5…
Thanks!
You really need to consult the spreadsheet on this. I'm sure you already knew you'd be getting that advice, but it's the right thing to do as output will vary from person to person depending on gear and spec.
For me, the spreadsheet AND my practical testing both showed the combination of (2x7.5 + 2.8.5) to be superior to (4x7.5). In fact, I even showed a dps benefit at the time from using a combo (2x7.5 + 2x8.0). I'm combat, however - you are mut - so my results may not hold true for you. Although they likely will for any other combat spec.
With that said, it's not constructive to come into a forum where people come to discuss optimizing a preferred tree and saying that tree isn't competitive and it's all futile. The purpose is again to optimize what we have and if Blizzard changes the tree to be a DW tree, then people will once again test and see what's optimal again and again as long as things are being changed. It is completely against the goal of this entire forum to bash a spec and say we shouldn't do anything until Blizzard changes it. It doesn't matter if we are competitive from an "OP-glyph" or broken talents or efficient rotation. The goal is to maximize what we have with what we were given and if your results aren't to your liking then you have the option to try something else. I come and read this forum because even though I'm not able to play currently due to work-load, I still like to keep up with what the new rotations/BiS and such so that when I do play again I'll have ideas about what to do and it is aggrivating to have to filter through trolling in order to get to where people are actually showing sims/math/testing/theory on what I actually came to the thread to read. So please, if you're going to troll, then at least show math supporting your trolling so as to be a productive yet discontent member of society.
I sympathize with your approach, but while I've said multiple times that anyone suggesting "not to go Frost because it's not a dps specc" is absolutely wrong, saying Frost is fine is another thing.
We're close to the point where more of our dps comes from our glyphs than from our talents. If that's not a problem I don't know what is, expecially since Blizzard has in the past nerfed exceedingly powerful glyphs (think BS) and those weren't nearly as good as the FS or the IT ones.
As I've said before, from a dps contribution perspective, it's my opinion that we rely too much on FS. It's efficient, but also frail, and if FS or any of the 2 related glyphs gets, say, a pvp nerf (something I wouldn't be surprised of), we're gonna be in deep trouble.
To give a comparison, the IT glyph provides 40-60 RP per rotation. Chill of the Grave between 40 and 25. Assuming 40% of your dps comes from FS, the FS glyph is a 10% dps increase. Find a talent that is as relevant to your specc. I haven't even touched the Sigil. Assuming a +900/+2200 hit/crit contribution, and a 60% crit ratio for FS, th XT sigil is a 530 to 640 dps increase. And so on.
We're threading more into the field of speculation than of theorycraft here, but my opinion is that there's something deeply wrong in how Frost is built at the moment. We're a one trick pony, and it's an extremely powerful trick, and with the amount of balancing that goes under the arena radar, that doesn't make me feel too safe.
12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.
@Grimolkin
1) First of all, SrS glyph is absolute must-have for any MM hunter (for precise calculations look earlier in the thread).
HM glyph is questionable. It's starting to be decent only with 3+ hunters in raid, otherwise you better stick with KS or CS glyph. Also SS glyph in Ulduar don't have much potential since on almost every fight you have to move a lot.
2) To get Aspect mastery you have to waste 3 point on Endurance, which is worthless. I'd rather put those points into Wild Quiver (at least 3-4% additional dmg) and 1 GftT (to reduce pet's focus-starving).
I personally don't like ISS - the benefit just seems too small for 3 points, especially after 3.1.3's mana cost reduction of all shots.
Also, if you run any 10-mans, then Rapid Recuperation + Rapid Killing will give you huge mana recovery tool.
And yes, IHM is now quite useful.
I disagree with the SS glyph comment. Although the majority of the fights do revolve around you moving around, SS 9/10 is only a 1.5 second cast, and specially with 4pT8, you want to make it work and use it in your rotation.
Now, here are my different spec variations/questions.
I am 1.05% under the hit cap, should I only use 1 point in FA or just go ahead and grab 2?
Also, is Barrage worth investing points in to? Not only am I finding myself not using AS a whole lot, but the damage it outputs compared to my other abilities is just weak.
Here is the spec I am thinking of using for myself. It also gives me a little bit of room with hit (since that talent will put me .95% over cap) to where I wont have to respec the next time that I pick up a new piece of gear and loose hit.
Im regular 10/61 unholy since uludar but it seems to be dropping behind our Rogues in single target of late and im finding it really boring. So i want to try blood, but my gear is 2 x8.5 + furious t2 weapon and mix of arp gear, first of all is this the right kind of setup or should i go 4/5 valorous or something? I also allways found Rune weapon incredibly clunky and not well designed for disease blood, therefore was wondering if a 50/21 spec with UB (given the amount of trash on bosses) would be viable.
Glyphs would be death, UB, Ds and Vh sigil or something. Gonna get some bull shit hand held infraction just for asking something which hasn't been mentioned but meh any help would be great.
I sympathize with your approach, but while I've said multiple times that anyone suggesting "not to go Frost because it's not a dps specc" is absolutely wrong, saying Frost is fine is another thing.
We're close to the point where more of our dps comes from our glyphs than from our talents. If that's not a problem I don't know what is, expecially since Blizzard has in the past nerfed exceedingly powerful glyphs (think BS) and those weren't nearly as good as the FS or the IT ones.
As I've said before, from a dps contribution perspective, it's my opinion that we rely too much on FS. It's efficient, but also frail, and if FS or any of the 2 related glyphs gets, say, a pvp nerf (something I wouldn't be surprised of), we're gonna be in deep trouble.
To give a comparison, the IT glyph provides 40-60 RP per rotation. Chill of the Grave between 40 and 25. Assuming 40% of your dps comes from FS, the FS glyph is a 10% dps increase. Find a talent that is as relevant to your specc. I haven't even touched the Sigil. Assuming a +900/+2200 hit/crit contribution, and a 60% crit ratio for FS, th XT sigil is a 530 to 640 dps increase. And so on.
We're threading more into the field of speculation than of theorycraft here, but my opinion is that there's something deeply wrong in how Frost is built at the moment. We're a one trick pony, and it's an extremely powerful trick, and with the amount of balancing that goes under the arena radar, that doesn't make me feel too safe.
I echo your thoughts Valtiel, I have always thought that sigils/relics/totem spots have been the wrong approach to having something "unique" in our range slot. It has more become a way to "fix" weaknesses in specs. The range slot item for a warrior/rogue doesn't make a spec suddenly become competitive all other factors remaining the same, why should ours? It is a deeper issue with the talents and baseline abilities that needs to be addressed.
Also you are spot on with the glyphs making our spec more so than the talents. Hopefully these issues will be addressed in the "near" future.
There appears to be a new BiS trinket for holy paladins now. If not BiS, it is certainly second BiS. New trinket revealed from Algalon 10-man, found on MMO-Champion this morning.
OK... so... I know its been discussed, and I know I prob missed the answer to the question I am about to ask.. but i have been reading for several days (just in this thread)... and you guys/girls all seem nice enough to at least point me in the right direction if this has in fact already been asked.
2/3 Brambles + 1/1 Force of Nature v.s 3/3 Celestial Focus
I could use the haste.... but if i can keep the trees alive they seem to do roughly 1300dps over 30seconds on their own.. not to mention if i can get them out b4 a Bloodlust.
I am fairly happy with my spec otherwise... and these seem to be my only "flex" points. I could be totally wrong though. Its been known to happen.
Thank you in advance for any specific info someone might have for me. I am just not sure how to compare the difference.. the math behind it all. I suppose overall haste through the entire fight may outweigh the time lost casting and the overall DPS of the trees alone (or as much as I can get them out) for any given fight.
There is no ranking for 51/7/13 or 15/51/5.
In Aldriana's spreadsheet 51/7/13 is higher rated with late Ulduar gear (4c T8), and the Sample Output works with BiS lists, so why 51/13/7 comes ahead?
Im regular 10/61 unholy since uludar but it seems to be dropping behind our Rogues in single target of late and im finding it really boring. So i want to try blood, but my gear is 2 x8.5 + furious t2 weapon and mix of arp gear, first of all is this the right kind of setup or should i go 4/5 valorous or something? I also allways found Rune weapon incredibly clunky and not well designed for disease blood, therefore was wondering if a 50/21 spec with UB (given the amount of trash on bosses) would be viable.
Glyphs would be death, UB, Ds and Vh sigil or something. Gonna get some bull shit hand held infraction just for asking something which hasn't been mentioned but meh any help would be great.
The OP lists the currently accepted stat weights for Blood DKs, along with a link to the BiS gear post. In addition there is also the 2/4 pc set bonus weights listed for Blood spec in the OP. The reason 50/0/21 isn't listed as a spec is b/c DRW outperforms UB.
Asking a question about whether or not 50/0/21 is a viable spec isn't a bad question. Asking people to go crunch numbers for you on what gear you should be using when the resources are available all over the board, is. If you have the foresight to realize your post will probably "get some bull shit hand held infraction" maybe figure out what you can for yourself, and if you still have valid questions, ask.
There appears to be a new BiS trinket for holy paladins now. If not BiS, it is certainly second BiS. New trinket revealed from Algalon 10-man, found on MMO-Champion this morning.
Curiously enough, this same trinket was not only discovered, but also discussed ad nauseum, about three pages ago.
But it does not take away the fact that Frost relies HEAVILY on glyphs and sigils to be viable. Sure Frost-dps is not dead without these but they need them to be viable.
There is no debating this really, Frost dps is not viable without the FS-Glyph. Frost Dps is not viable without the IT glyph. That leaves one glyph up for choice really. And blizzards intent with glyphs was to allow people to customize your spec to your preference.
If you look at Unholy there is only one "mandatory" glyph and that is the Glyph of the Ghoul. And if you look at blood there is no really mandatory glyph needed to be viable.
And when it comes to Sigil preference there is only minor diffrences in DPS for both Unholy and Blood. As I think the OP mentioned you shouldn't go Frost until you have the XT-Sigil.
So I will stick to the fact that I believe that the Frost tree at this moment is broken due to heavy reliance to glyphs and the sigil to be viable.
But if you can come up with a spec that doesn't need the Glyphs and the Sigil and does DPS on par with the other specs you will have me convinced. Until that I stand by my oppinion that Frost is next up on the chopping board and with the coming changes to make DW viable it just seems as the logical way to go.
edit:
On a totaly unrelated note, have anyone done any testing on the AMS-glyph? If people are unfamiliar with it it increases the lenght of AMS with 2 seconds. And seeing as the OP explained the usefullness of it there could be an intresting way to go. The only issue I can see is if it capps you beyond being able to dump fast enough to take advantage of it fully. I'm not saying it is the optimal glyph but I'm just curious of its effects and as my computer is in the shop I have no way of testing it myself.
I think I might have over-estimated it's value since seeing as not much of the damage is done over 7 seconds. Limiting its usefullness even more. But if someone has any numbers I would appreiecte it.
You keep throwing around these statements like 'x spec doesn't need y glyph to be viable, but frost does' and that's just not true.
Again, Darkside/Kroot has defined viable for us in this discussion as optimal.
Blood glyphs? Dancing Rune Weapon, Dark Death, Death Strike.
Unholy glyphs? Scourge Strike, Dark Death, Ghoul - Possibly Unholy Blight
Frost glyphs? FS/IT/HB or FS/IT/OB
I'm not going to say that Frost doesn't rely on our glyphs a lot - we do. However, other PVE DPS specs are just as locked in for optimal glyphs or as limited in 'choice' as we are. The illusion of Glyph choice is simply that in PVE - an illusion...your choice comes in when you go around in PvP or if you want to fuck around with sub-optimal glyphs like AMS for funzies.
Just because Blood/Unholy are on the top of the WMO posts does that mean we should all basically bow to our counterparts because everyone else just blows us out of the water when you're looking at the top guilds in the world? I don't think so. For me, Frost is fun because it is competitive for my raid and without-a-doubt harder to play than Unholy or Blood who both have either extremely static rotations or extremely easy rotations..I really do think that with proper execution Frost stands a chance to perform well vs the other specs without a significant overhaul...but ours (I speak of ITx6, as usual) requires proc watching, faster reflexes due to 1 sec GCD, and uses a dynamic priority system and hardly anyone uses it so I'm not really surprised that most DKs on the charts are Blood/Unholy.
What I think he was trying to say was that Frost is much more dependent upon Glyphs than any of the other DK specs, by a significant margin. Simply put, you cannot come anywhere close to competitive DPS as Frost without the FS and IT glyphs. I can't speak towards Unholy, having never really played the spec in a PvE setting. I did however recently switch to Blood and it is much, much less reliant on glyphs. For them, glyphs are much more 'supplemental' instead of absolutely critical. Their glyphs are just as 'locked in' (and that's fine), they just don't receive nearly the benefit that Frost DKs do in comparison, not by a long shot.
The nature of this problem goes against the original design intention of Blizzard; to make glyphs not absolutely critical to the success of a particular class/spec. This is, of course, venturing dangerously close to the realm of speculation and wishlisting, so I am going to drop the discussion at this point.
A few nights ago, I went to Heroic OK with some guildies. Insanity hits, and when we're done, my guildies tell me that the Insanity version of me didn't cast any HoTs at all. I just stood there and spammed Nourish.
So I guess we now know what Blizzard's idea of the Ultimate Druid Healing Rotation is.
Yeah, i was also thinking about puting something in noxios stings.
How about this build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Anyway. i'm open to all the coments about my build.
depending on the need of range / aimed[ms debuff] / mana your spec is a mix of both, and i don´t get why use have 2/3 in nox stings and 1/3 in hp if you could also have 1/3 and 2/3 if you prefer one over the other.
On ur potions that you can pop for fights doesn't insane strength pot still win out over the 500haste pot?Just not sure cause i have alot of mats and wanting some clearification on this b4 i brew up alot of the wrong pot.
Hello yall, for pretty much weeks now ive been trying to crack the nut thats got "Whys my dps so low" and well ive come up blank. Atm with current gear im pushing around 4k dps, but my team leader keeps expecting me to be doing better, as in beeing on or near the top of the meters. Id appreciate any help i can get
All right i will try this a second time. On your list of potions that you say is ideal for a death knight to use during bloodlust and hystriea, you list haste potion or armor potion but wouldn't insane strength potion be a more viable choice. I am just wanting some clearification on the matter ty.
Just a little update. Still working out some kinks and cleaning up, but I like it a little bit more. Contemplating adding KG Panels back in, but I'm not sure.
I have to wonder these days, where is the merit in the serpent sting glyph? If Chimaera is refreshing stings for us, we only fire serpent once in a given fight anyway, the glyph isn't doing a thing but taking up space. I still see many people choosing SrS over CS or KS glyphs, however, so there is either some logic I'm not getting, or people are accounting for SrS drop offs that I'm just not getting in ulduar.
Edit:
Does increased duration mean more damage for chimaera shot? Just thought about that, do confirm.
06/03/09, 10:20 AM
