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Old 06/03/09, 9:59 AM   #4876
lolsnipe
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Kel'Thuzad
What are the best glyphs the BiS MM spec, i am using Srp, KS, and SS glyphs. Any help would be really nice, MM dps last night was really nice, i had no mana issues, so blizzard definitely fixed it.

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Old 06/03/09, 10:20 AM   #4877
EwokChilli
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Fauh View Post
Valtiel everything you said is true. However it does not take away the fact that Frost is currently the worst tree and the only thing that makes it viable is really an OP Glyph. Sadly Frost is broken and it will probably be fixed in 3.2 and remade into a DW-tree.

I agree that it would make more sense to make Unholy or Blood the "DW-tree" due to the nature of these trees but the thing is that they way they are now they are preforming very well in Ulduar and thus remaking them is not "nessecary".

If you see it from a Blizzard point-of-view it would make more sense to make Frost-DW viable. You don't take something working, break it and rebuild it when you have something broken and begging to be re-built. But that said it's all just speculation. We never know what they have in mind. It could really be that they're buffing Nerves of Cold Steel insanely much to make DW-viable, though I hope it's something more intresting.
So, because the frost tree hasn't found it's sweet spot and best rotation yet (because it has a lot more options than unholy and blood) you automatically jump to saying that frost is the worst of the trees. There have been a number of people who have posted very good results with frost, but because 90% of the DK base is either unholy or blood because those trees already have "optimal" rotations everyone automatically assumes that unholy and blood are just better. Of course nearly all of the "Best DPS" reports are going to be unholy or blood when 98% of the DKs in high end raiding guilds that aren't tanking are unholy or blood. It's simply an issue of scale, statistics and proportions. When you have as much possible deviation in damage as DKs do because of crits, then if you have 1000 people playing unholy and 1 playing frost then obviously one of those 1000 people is going to go far beyond the standard deviation and post some ridiculously huge numbers while the 1 person trying frost has very little chance to break outside the standard deviation for that spec. There are simulations made and those take into account a huge number of facts but it's impossible for them to really simulate in-game situations like movement, multiple mobs, burst times, etc. Therefore you should listen to the word of those who are performing well (even if just in their standards) and glean information from it that you think is legitimate and ignore what you think is biased then test yourself and see how it performs for you.

With that said, it's not constructive to come into a forum where people come to discuss optimizing a preferred tree and saying that tree isn't competitive and it's all futile. The purpose is again to optimize what we have and if Blizzard changes the tree to be a DW tree, then people will once again test and see what's optimal again and again as long as things are being changed. It is completely against the goal of this entire forum to bash a spec and say we shouldn't do anything until Blizzard changes it. It doesn't matter if we are competitive from an "OP-glyph" or broken talents or efficient rotation. The goal is to maximize what we have with what we were given and if your results aren't to your liking then you have the option to try something else. I come and read this forum because even though I'm not able to play currently due to work-load, I still like to keep up with what the new rotations/BiS and such so that when I do play again I'll have ideas about what to do and it is aggrivating to have to filter through trolling in order to get to where people are actually showing sims/math/testing/theory on what I actually came to the thread to read. So please, if you're going to troll, then at least show math supporting your trolling so as to be a productive yet discontent member of society.

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Old 06/03/09, 10:37 AM   #4878
Lyphe
Von Kaiser
 
Lyphe's Avatar
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by bdaswat View Post
2 piece t7.5 / t8.5 or 4 piece t7.5

Okay, I am a long time reader of Elitist Jerks, and I can’t seem to find the answer to my question anywhere. I read some where that the 2 piece t7.5 has some EP value around like ~75 or so and the 2 piece t8.5 has an EP value of like ~85. I just got my 2nd piece of Tier 8.5 and want to know if it makes more sense doing ( 2p 7.5 / 2p 8.5 ) or if I should just keep my full t7.5 4 piece bonus until I get my 4 peice t8.5 to replace it... (b/c the 4 piece t7.5 bonus was listed as having like a EP value of ~380 or something?) It seems like even with the extra EP value you get from the upgraded gear, still doesn’t offset the (2piece+2piece ) instead of the full 4piece t7.5…

Thanks!
You really need to consult the spreadsheet on this. I'm sure you already knew you'd be getting that advice, but it's the right thing to do as output will vary from person to person depending on gear and spec.

For me, the spreadsheet AND my practical testing both showed the combination of (2x7.5 + 2.8.5) to be superior to (4x7.5). In fact, I even showed a dps benefit at the time from using a combo (2x7.5 + 2x8.0). I'm combat, however - you are mut - so my results may not hold true for you. Although they likely will for any other combat spec.

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Old 06/03/09, 10:53 AM   #4879
Valtiel
Don Flamenco
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by EwokChilli View Post

With that said, it's not constructive to come into a forum where people come to discuss optimizing a preferred tree and saying that tree isn't competitive and it's all futile. The purpose is again to optimize what we have and if Blizzard changes the tree to be a DW tree, then people will once again test and see what's optimal again and again as long as things are being changed. It is completely against the goal of this entire forum to bash a spec and say we shouldn't do anything until Blizzard changes it. It doesn't matter if we are competitive from an "OP-glyph" or broken talents or efficient rotation. The goal is to maximize what we have with what we were given and if your results aren't to your liking then you have the option to try something else. I come and read this forum because even though I'm not able to play currently due to work-load, I still like to keep up with what the new rotations/BiS and such so that when I do play again I'll have ideas about what to do and it is aggrivating to have to filter through trolling in order to get to where people are actually showing sims/math/testing/theory on what I actually came to the thread to read. So please, if you're going to troll, then at least show math supporting your trolling so as to be a productive yet discontent member of society.

I sympathize with your approach, but while I've said multiple times that anyone suggesting "not to go Frost because it's not a dps specc" is absolutely wrong, saying Frost is fine is another thing.

We're close to the point where more of our dps comes from our glyphs than from our talents. If that's not a problem I don't know what is, expecially since Blizzard has in the past nerfed exceedingly powerful glyphs (think BS) and those weren't nearly as good as the FS or the IT ones.

As I've said before, from a dps contribution perspective, it's my opinion that we rely too much on FS. It's efficient, but also frail, and if FS or any of the 2 related glyphs gets, say, a pvp nerf (something I wouldn't be surprised of), we're gonna be in deep trouble.

To give a comparison, the IT glyph provides 40-60 RP per rotation. Chill of the Grave between 40 and 25. Assuming 40% of your dps comes from FS, the FS glyph is a 10% dps increase. Find a talent that is as relevant to your specc. I haven't even touched the Sigil. Assuming a +900/+2200 hit/crit contribution, and a 60% crit ratio for FS, th XT sigil is a 530 to 640 dps increase. And so on.

We're threading more into the field of speculation than of theorycraft here, but my opinion is that there's something deeply wrong in how Frost is built at the moment. We're a one trick pony, and it's an extremely powerful trick, and with the amount of balancing that goes under the arena radar, that doesn't make me feel too safe.

12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.

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Old 06/03/09, 10:59 AM   #4880
autoshootafk
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Darkspear
Originally Posted by livercat View Post
@Grimolkin
1) First of all, SrS glyph is absolute must-have for any MM hunter (for precise calculations look earlier in the thread).
HM glyph is questionable. It's starting to be decent only with 3+ hunters in raid, otherwise you better stick with KS or CS glyph. Also SS glyph in Ulduar don't have much potential since on almost every fight you have to move a lot.
2) To get Aspect mastery you have to waste 3 point on Endurance, which is worthless. I'd rather put those points into Wild Quiver (at least 3-4% additional dmg) and 1 GftT (to reduce pet's focus-starving).
I personally don't like ISS - the benefit just seems too small for 3 points, especially after 3.1.3's mana cost reduction of all shots.
Also, if you run any 10-mans, then Rapid Recuperation + Rapid Killing will give you huge mana recovery tool.
And yes, IHM is now quite useful.
I disagree with the SS glyph comment. Although the majority of the fights do revolve around you moving around, SS 9/10 is only a 1.5 second cast, and specially with 4pT8, you want to make it work and use it in your rotation.

Now, here are my different spec variations/questions.

I am 1.05% under the hit cap, should I only use 1 point in FA or just go ahead and grab 2?

Also, is Barrage worth investing points in to? Not only am I finding myself not using AS a whole lot, but the damage it outputs compared to my other abilities is just weak.

Here is the spec I am thinking of using for myself. It also gives me a little bit of room with hit (since that talent will put me .95% over cap) to where I wont have to respec the next time that I pick up a new piece of gear and loose hit.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

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Old 06/03/09, 11:18 AM   #4881
Snootzi
Banned
 
Human Death Knight
 
Aggramar (EU)
Im regular 10/61 unholy since uludar but it seems to be dropping behind our Rogues in single target of late and im finding it really boring. So i want to try blood, but my gear is 2 x8.5 + furious t2 weapon and mix of arp gear, first of all is this the right kind of setup or should i go 4/5 valorous or something? I also allways found Rune weapon incredibly clunky and not well designed for disease blood, therefore was wondering if a 50/21 spec with UB (given the amount of trash on bosses) would be viable.

Glyphs would be death, UB, Ds and Vh sigil or something. Gonna get some bull shit hand held infraction just for asking something which hasn't been mentioned but meh any help would be great.

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Old 06/03/09, 11:21 AM   #4882
avnos
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by Valtiel View Post
I sympathize with your approach, but while I've said multiple times that anyone suggesting "not to go Frost because it's not a dps specc" is absolutely wrong, saying Frost is fine is another thing.

We're close to the point where more of our dps comes from our glyphs than from our talents. If that's not a problem I don't know what is, expecially since Blizzard has in the past nerfed exceedingly powerful glyphs (think BS) and those weren't nearly as good as the FS or the IT ones.

As I've said before, from a dps contribution perspective, it's my opinion that we rely too much on FS. It's efficient, but also frail, and if FS or any of the 2 related glyphs gets, say, a pvp nerf (something I wouldn't be surprised of), we're gonna be in deep trouble.

To give a comparison, the IT glyph provides 40-60 RP per rotation. Chill of the Grave between 40 and 25. Assuming 40% of your dps comes from FS, the FS glyph is a 10% dps increase. Find a talent that is as relevant to your specc. I haven't even touched the Sigil. Assuming a +900/+2200 hit/crit contribution, and a 60% crit ratio for FS, th XT sigil is a 530 to 640 dps increase. And so on.

We're threading more into the field of speculation than of theorycraft here, but my opinion is that there's something deeply wrong in how Frost is built at the moment. We're a one trick pony, and it's an extremely powerful trick, and with the amount of balancing that goes under the arena radar, that doesn't make me feel too safe.

I echo your thoughts Valtiel, I have always thought that sigils/relics/totem spots have been the wrong approach to having something "unique" in our range slot. It has more become a way to "fix" weaknesses in specs. The range slot item for a warrior/rogue doesn't make a spec suddenly become competitive all other factors remaining the same, why should ours? It is a deeper issue with the talents and baseline abilities that needs to be addressed.

Also you are spot on with the glyphs making our spec more so than the talents. Hopefully these issues will be addressed in the "near" future.

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Old 06/03/09, 11:23 AM   #4883
Stonespike
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Lightbringer
There appears to be a new BiS trinket for holy paladins now. If not BiS, it is certainly second BiS. New trinket revealed from Algalon 10-man, found on MMO-Champion this morning.


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Old 06/03/09, 11:31 AM   #4884
Gryzz
 
Tauren Druid
 
Lightning's Blade
general question

OK... so... I know its been discussed, and I know I prob missed the answer to the question I am about to ask.. but i have been reading for several days (just in this thread)... and you guys/girls all seem nice enough to at least point me in the right direction if this has in fact already been asked.

2/3 Brambles + 1/1 Force of Nature v.s 3/3 Celestial Focus

I could use the haste.... but if i can keep the trees alive they seem to do roughly 1300dps over 30seconds on their own.. not to mention if i can get them out b4 a Bloodlust.

I am fairly happy with my spec otherwise... and these seem to be my only "flex" points. I could be totally wrong though. Its been known to happen.

Thank you in advance for any specific info someone might have for me. I am just not sure how to compare the difference.. the math behind it all. I suppose overall haste through the entire fight may outweigh the time lost casting and the overall DPS of the trees alone (or as much as I can get them out) for any given fight.

Help me if you can.

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Old 06/03/09, 11:33 AM   #4885
impi
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Baelgun (EU)
I just had a look at the updated Sample Output for 3.1.2:

SampleOutputT8 - simulationcraft - Google Code

There is no ranking for 51/7/13 or 15/51/5.
In Aldriana's spreadsheet 51/7/13 is higher rated with late Ulduar gear (4c T8), and the Sample Output works with BiS lists, so why 51/13/7 comes ahead?

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Old 06/03/09, 11:34 AM   #4886
Soilantgreen64
Piston Honda
 
Soilantgreen64's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Dethecus
Originally Posted by Snootzi View Post
Im regular 10/61 unholy since uludar but it seems to be dropping behind our Rogues in single target of late and im finding it really boring. So i want to try blood, but my gear is 2 x8.5 + furious t2 weapon and mix of arp gear, first of all is this the right kind of setup or should i go 4/5 valorous or something? I also allways found Rune weapon incredibly clunky and not well designed for disease blood, therefore was wondering if a 50/21 spec with UB (given the amount of trash on bosses) would be viable.

Glyphs would be death, UB, Ds and Vh sigil or something. Gonna get some bull shit hand held infraction just for asking something which hasn't been mentioned but meh any help would be great.
The OP lists the currently accepted stat weights for Blood DKs, along with a link to the BiS gear post. In addition there is also the 2/4 pc set bonus weights listed for Blood spec in the OP. The reason 50/0/21 isn't listed as a spec is b/c DRW outperforms UB.

Asking a question about whether or not 50/0/21 is a viable spec isn't a bad question. Asking people to go crunch numbers for you on what gear you should be using when the resources are available all over the board, is. If you have the foresight to realize your post will probably "get some bull shit hand held infraction" maybe figure out what you can for yourself, and if you still have valid questions, ask.

But seriously, as far as a "bull shit hand held infraction"... if you dont like the way these forums work, World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Death Knight

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Old 06/03/09, 11:36 AM   #4887
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>
 
Hamlet's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t59457-m...dated_3_1_2_a/


United States Online
Old 06/03/09, 11:40 AM   #4888
avnos
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Dark Iron
Interesting update norg, I have been following the frost alliance set for a while and its interesting to see it change. No more 4 piece!

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Old 06/03/09, 11:40 AM   #4889
Saladin
Piston Honda
 
Saladin's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Zuluhed
Originally Posted by Stonespike View Post
There appears to be a new BiS trinket for holy paladins now. If not BiS, it is certainly second BiS. New trinket revealed from Algalon 10-man, found on MMO-Champion this morning.

Curiously enough, this same trinket was not only discovered, but also discussed ad nauseum, about three pages ago.

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Old 06/03/09, 11:49 AM   #4890
burnttoast45
Glass Joe
 
Orc Warlock
 
Arthas
thanks @rutiene & @namnalia. I knew I was missing something silly.

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