Looks like a fair few nerfs there. I'm suprised there hasnt been more complaints.

Hello! First post here. Hope I can contribute something to the discussion. I've posted this on the beta forums, and was wondering what all of your opinions were? Sorry for the wall of text...



Below are the most recent requested modifications to our trees, following the general consensus of the Priest beta community, as well as a proposed talent tree, to give you (the developers) an idea of what the end-result would look like. Prepare for a huge wall of text.

War Tools :: Talent tree Suggested Priest Talent Trees

In this thread, I'll be going over each modification that I've made, explaining why the general agreement has been to change the way certain talents work.

Discipline:

Twin Disciples:

It only makes sense for our channelled heals to be affected too, given that the damage / healing output is instant in all cases.

Silent Resolve:

By removing Shadow Dispel resistance from this talent, it allows PvP Shadow Priests to have some form of threat reduction from Shadow Affinty, as well as dispel resistance for their offensive spells.

Meditation:

This gives both the Holy and Shadow tree easier access to more efficient mana regeneration. This is effective in both PvP and PvE. To compensate, Improved Power Word: Shield has been moved lower in the tree.

Improved Inner Fire:

With the removal of charges, an increase in duration by 20 minutes, and immunity to being dispelled (the widespread consensus), the charges aspect can be scrapped from this talent. The charge, duration, and dispel mechanics for Inner Fire are just plain tedious, and are incredibly outdated, considering the far superior self-buffs that Mages and Warlocks have at their disposal. Plus, 50% looks much prettier than 45%.

Inner Focus:

Priests are now much more crit oriented. Therefore, an increase to 50% critical effect chance from 25% seems fair.

Improved Power Word: Shield:

One of the main gripes about Discipline in beta is the huge reliance that the tree puts onto one spell. Considering the whole tree is basically centered around one spell, a small increase in damage absorbed is justified. Also, Discipline Priests can currently be severely gimped by a simple dispel, effectively reducing our usefulness significantly. To combat this, an additional 50% of dispel resistance solely for Power Word: Shield and Divine Aegis seems fair.

Divine Spirit:

If the current build's version of the spell can stack with Totem of Wrath and / or Flametongue Totem, then it's a very nice talent point. However, given the amount of talents already at our disposal in the Discipline tree, there are several necessary talents that must be bypassed if we are to get Improved Divine Spirit. Condensing the effect into one talent point would help significantly.

Focused Power:

The bulk of the Discipline tree is in the deeper sections, and so we need another talent point if we are to access tier 7. Adding another rank to Focused Power not only gives us a handy 2% damage and healing boost, but it makes our Mass Dispel spell instant, a nice bonus.

Focused Will:

I never understood why this talent was nerfed to the extent that it was. Adding 1% to the damage reduction (4% --> 5%) would help to even out the difference.

Reflective Shields:

By adding Divine Aegis to this talent, as well as counting the reflective damage as threat for the shielded target, this change negates the current problem of tanks being rage-starved as a result of constant Power Word: Shielding / Divine Aegis procs. The extra 5% makes it looker nicer.

Rapture:

Currently, Rapture seems to be poorly represented. In its previous form, when each hit to a Power Word: Shield or Divine Aegis restored 2.5% mana (whether it broke the shield or not), the talent was overpowered. There was no need, however, to reduce the percentage of maximum mana restored from our standard heals. A suitable compromise would be to change the healing component back to what it originally was (2.5% maximum mana per direct heal) and only return 2.5% maximum mana when Power Word: Shield or Divine Aegis are broken by damage or dispelled.

Divine Aegis:

A simple increase of 3% to make 1/3 of the critical heals count as the shield would be useful, as well as a small increase in duration. As several tanks have complained, as well as not producing as much threat with Power Word: Shield and / or Divine Aegis applied (solved with Reflective Shields change), their mana, rage, or runic power still suffered. The solution is in the modification of this spell. A 5% mana, 20 rage, 10 energy, or 30 runic power return after Power Word: Shield or Divine Aegis are broken by damage or dispelled would rectify this.

Renewed Hope:

I realise that the original talent balance was the cause for the original Renewed Hope nerf, but it seems unjustified. There are no talents or abilities that can reduce the duration of the Weakened Soul effect, and so there should be a significant benefit for having one of our main tools be unaccessible. 10% at maximum rank is suitable.

Grace:

For starters, this should be reduced to 1 point, given that we're having to spend too many points towards the end of the tree in order to be able to pick up the essential early Holy talents. The addition of Prayer of Mending to this talent would help both in PvP and PvE situations where widespread AoE damage (a Discipline weakness) is prevalent. It is also the general agreement that Grace seems very lacklustre when compared to other classes' similar talents. Tree of Life, for example, increases raid-wide healing by 6%. Surely a 6% healing received increase from all healers on 1 or 2 (depending on the off-tank situation) tanks isn't unjustified. There is also the problem of the duration. One of the main concerns with the Discipline tree is the need to be chain-casting for quite a while. With this being the case, we rarely have a chance to use the 5 second rule to our advantage. An increase in the duration of Grace to around 15-20 seconds would help to resolve this problem.

Penance:

Other than Divine Spirit, assuming it stacks with similar buffs, Discipline Priests bring very little utility to the table. With an added bonus of having Penance refresh all Priest heal over time spells on the target, Holy Priests are able to focus on what they excel at (raid healing), rather than having to worry about keeping their renew up on the main tank / off tanks. For a 51 point talent, this seems like a suitable change. A little bit of extra damage to the spell wouldn't go astray, either. As it currently sits, it's simply a better-looking version of Smite.

Holy:

Divine Fury:

As is the case with Druids (Naturalist), a small improvement in damage can be incorporated into one of the staple talents. The Priest equivalent would involve the removal of the Searing Light talent, and having it incorporated into the Divine Fury talent.

Surge of Light:

I, personally, am very happy with the addition of Flash Heal to this talent, however many believe that this talent would be better suited to being much higher in the Holy tree (as seen in the mock talent tree). To compensate for this, the proc chance for this talent can be reduced by half, while also incorporating the Holy Fire spell.

Lightwell:

I, personally, love what you've done with Lightwell in the expansion. You've made it a strong, situational heal that no longer breaks on the smallest amount of damage. This encourages thinking on your feet, something that's very refreshing these days in both PvP and PvE. However, there is still the general agreement that it is TOO situational for a 31 point talent. I tend to agree with this, and feel that it is too strong for a base spell. Therefore, a spot at 11 points into the Holy tree is acceptable. This also enables Discipline Priests to pick up the ability, giving them a much-needed raid healing ability. Desperate Prayer can be made trainable. Please reduce the mana cost for Desperate Prayer back to 0, even if a 5 minute cooldown needs to be put on it. It was the "last resort" spell in PvP that didn't break the 5 second rule, and giving it a mana cost really reduces its usefulness.

Improved Healing / Inspiration:

To be frank, these talents NEED to be combined together. The Holy tree places far more emphasis on raid healing than the Discipline tree and, as such, the Inspiration buff will be an afterthought for the main tank / off tanks. With the current need for Discipline Priests to pick up Improved Healing for the direct heal mana reduction, Inspiration must be skipped in favour of crit-favoured talents. Even when combining the Improved Healing and Inspiration talents together, a Discipline Priest must skip picking up Improved Renew, a significant HPS reduction.

31 point talent:

With the widespread consensus of Lightwell being too situational and "unworthy" of a 31 point talent, something new needs to go here. The mock talent tree simply shows an idea, but that's not really my department.

Holy Concentration / Improved Holy Concentration:

With the most recent build, and the talent's reliance on critical strike rating, the talent scales much better. However, the way in which it was implemented causes a problem. By proccing Holy Concentration only on critical heals, the free heals with haste will generally come at a time when the tanks are at full health, and are in no imminent danger. By changing this talent slightly to be based directly off of your critical heal chance, both normal heals AND critical heals can proc Holy Concentration. By making ~60% of your critical strike chance affect Holy Concentration, the talent scales appropriately. This has been expressed by numerous other beta testers already. Assuming that the Priest has a 15% chance of landing a critical heal, the Holy Concentration proc chance will be 9%. Once the Priest improves his / her gear, however, to 20%, the Holy Concentration proc chance increases to 12%. This is generally seen as an appropriate modifier.

Circle of Healing:

While I, as well as every other non-Druid healer, agree that Flourish was ridiculously overpowered, its nerf was a bit harsh. It's very easy to compare Wild Growth to Circle of Healing, and rightfully so. It's probably in the best interests of both classes if the healing from both spells was doubled and given a small cooldown. I'm sure that Priests don't want a repeat of BT / Sunwell, with CoH spam galore, and Druids want an situationally effective AoE spell.

Test of Faith:

The current percentage increases are a bit low, still, from the 'talent balance' patch. An increase to 10% for both the healing and critical effect chance for -50% healthers is appropriate.

Divine Providence:

Talk about your dull talents. This is more effective than Nyquil (sorry to whoever I stole that one from). Please do something to give the lower half of our Holy tree some flavour, rather than just percentage modifiers. Changing this talent to add a new game mechanic, or something else that was interesting would be a good start.

Guardian Spirit:

Some may say that it's far too situational for a 51 point talent but, if balanced correctly, it can be very useful in a variety of situations. Currently, the sacrifice heal, as well as the duration of the spell are far too low, with the healing increase being alright. 10% of a target's maximum health is negligible with the high hits that they'll be taking in raid encounters at level 80. I've had numerous cases where the sacrifice component was used up, only to have the tank die 0.1 seconds later. It simply isn't high enough. Increase the sacrifice heal to around 50% and it becomes a valuable spell with a good niche. An increase in duration to 20 seconds would also be useful, allowing the Priest to pop it just for the healing increase, if they're fairly certain that the tank won't take sudden spike damage.

Shadow:

Improved Spirit Tap:

Adding Smite and Holy Fire critical strikes to the spells that trigger this talent would really help for leveling. There's no way that this could be abused in a PvE healing environment, as the only reason for casting a Smite went out the window with the addition of Flash Heal to Surge of Light. The mana generation while in combat, as well as the Spirit gain, should also be increased to 25% at max rank.

Shadow Affinity:

As noted before, in Silent Resolve, separating dispel resistance for Shadow spells and Holy / Discipline spells "forces" Shadow Priests to have some kind of threat reduction other than Shadowform, making them viable for PvE content.

Shadow Reach:

Combining this talent with Veiled Shadows frees up quite a bit of space in the Shadow tree. Please don't lump this under the "exceeding talent budget" idea, as Druids' "Nature's Reach" is a good example of doing plenty with few talent points.

Shadow Weaving:

The main reason for the reduction in the Shadow damage bonus from this spell was that it worked too well with Warlocks at the time. Now that this talent causes us to gain a buff, rather than the enemy gaining a debuff, coupled with the removal of Misery's +5% damage, an increase of 1% or 2% per application wouldn't be unreasonable.

Silence:

Please remove the Improved Psychic Scream pre-requisite. Imp PS is almost useless for PvE, while silence can be very useful in heroics and 10 man raids. It's not worth using 3 points when you're only going to be getting a benefit out of 1.

Vampiric Embrace:

Please change the base healing component to 20% and remove the "Improved" section. This will stop the over-crowding at the bottom of the tree.

Mind Melt:

Change the name to Face Melt?

Dispersion:

I love what you've done with the newest version of Dispersion. Once again, it requires that you think on your feet to get full use out of the spell. I do believe, however, that it is too deep into the tree. It fits well at 31 points, alongside Shadowform.

Psychic Horror:

Please change this back. The 4 second Horror effect was all we had to possibly have a chance of getting away from Rogues, Warriors, or any Undead class.

Pain and Suffering:

I don't think 50% Shadow Word: Death blowback reduction at maximum rank would be unreasonable, given that the reduction came when the talent wasn't even working properly.

Twisted Faith:

Please change the talent to be at least 25%. The Balance Druid's Improved Moonkin form gives 15% Spirit --> Spell Damage, and is much earlier in the tree. Scaling is one of the main Shadow concerns.

51 point talent:

With a possible Dispersion move to 31 points, we need a new 51 point Shadow talent. Once again, the spell in the mock talent calculator is just a suggestion, however it's been agreed upon by many Priests, as well as other classes, that it would be appropriate (similar to Swiftmend, but damage instead of healing).


Finally, in regards to non-talented areas:

Would it be possible for us to get a heal similar to the current Rank 1 Greater Heal? There have been times when I, as well as other Priests that I've spoken to, really needed something in between a max rank Flash Heal and a max rank Greater Heal, to keep a tank topped up. This heal could possible replace our current "Heal" spell, while giving the "Lesser Heal" spell more ranks, in order to not gimp lower-leveled Priests out of a new heal.

Please give us back Shadowguard (very useful for Blackout procs in PvP Shadow) and Chastise (very useful in many situations in PvP Disc / Holy)

Please make Hymn of Hope either instant or reduce it to a 4 second channel effect for 8% total mana (possibly even raid-wide?). 8 seconds of channelling is FAR too long for only 5 people getting 8% of their total mana.

Inner Fire (again!) needs to have no charges, 30 minute duration, and be undispellable. It's been a matter worry for too long now. The charges, duration, and susceptibility to dispel are just tedious.

Poison removal wouldn't go amiss. Currently, we're 1 of 2 classes (other being Druid), who are only able to dispel 2 types of debuffs, however Druids have many ways to escape Magic effects (travel form / shapeshifting). To keep the balance, please give us Poison removal (possibly coupled in with Cure / Abolish Disease?) and give Druids Disease removal.

Thoughts?

I second this notion!

Sarjin I'm so at your side. My alt is a prot-warrior. I dont realy know where she will really end in WotLK and if she would be comparable to other classes. I think prot-warrior is in a better position to compair with healing-priests. They had a very good nice in BC (I assume here that the holy-priest has also). They had to give very much to other tanking classes for WotLK. They fear that they dont get enough to compensate that.

But I'm clearly impressed what they do to the warrior trees. Prot got many talents combined and nearly every talent reduced to 3 points. Some things became available to every warrior (we only got HN and a switch between the racials -wow). The reason wase that it seemed so full of mandatory things. That was true - but the same could be said to holy-priests. The only decisions we had in BC was if we took MA, Range or Prayer-Boost (and the decision btween IPS or CoH). There were many more option to the prot-warrior.

Then they gave the prot-warrior not only one interesting new things. They added more and more over the last weeks. They got a new talent even today, after weeks of tweeking.

And they got many talent-position-switches. Even between the trees, so it is easier for them (and the other warriors) to get what they need.

And warriors protest that they dont gent enough love and answers from Blizz - when they get sometines 10 answers a day...

I cannot understand why all this is done to warriors - who fear for their role in raides - while we are in an even worse situation and did get less love all the time.