Since the 25 Defense enchant doesn't count towards diminishing returns, do that mean a DK can have upto 565 defense (assuming Def enchant) without "losing" a lot avoidance when Def diminishes?

I am asking because I have the 84 Defense rating trinket (totaling 555 defense) and wondering if that trinket is still useful since my DK is over the Def soft cap.

Yes, this was gone over is detail back when the 25 defense/2% stam runeforge was released.

25 defense gives 3% avoidance

So as long as you are at 565 Defense you only lose 1% Avoidance by not having SS and you still gain the 2% Stam. There are people who go this route but at the same time there are a lot who don't.

Yes.

Yes, I'm saying that you only need one or two sources of 20% slow in the raid. Just like you only need one or two sources of 20% haste in the raid and only one or two sources of +10% AP in the raid, etc.

If you'd bothered to read my post, you'd see quite plainly that I am not saying that you don't need IIT at all. I'm saying that you can choose to not take IIT in some situations and that isn't automatically a bad choice. Also, the DK FAQ isn't saying what you think it's saying. The first quote is only talking about offtanks, and the second one is flat-out wrong; IIT isn't as much of a DTPS decrease as Blade Barrier is, for example, and on pure- or almost pure-physical bosses, Toughness is better still.

Re: Avoidance -- that's totally true. It's also totally irrelevant to the matter at hand. IIT does not lead to spike damage. Without IIT, bosses attack 6% faster than with it. That's a constant increase, which, by definition, is not spike damage. Thus, saying "but avoidance is spiky!" is a strawman. Not having an IIT-type debuff on the boss doesn't change the spikiness of the boss's damage at all, so avoidance (which would be the same with or without IIT) can be safely factored out of the equation because it applies to both cases equally.

Again, law of large numbers. We don't optimize for the first 10% of the graph. We optimize for the final 10% of the graph. If we optimized for the first 10%, we'd be actively avoiding avoidance stats (no pun intended).

I wonder, if maximizing raid effectiveness is the goal, which class is harmed the least by taking the talent or using the mana to cast the spell that would give provide the %6 speed debuff that Imp. Icy Touch provides. The number of variables is pretty daunting, but it's interesting that it's a real, findable property.

This is a good question, and one I honestly don't know the answer to. Obviously DPS-specced Frost DKs are always going to have IIT. For Druids and Warriors, it's pretty much a pure tanking talent. In that respect, it's less harmful to DKs, or at least more likely to be provided by DKs. I don't know enough about Druid or Warrior tanking to be able to state that they lose less as a tradeoff for it in a tank spec, though.

This is all I was ever saying. It's a choice.

There are people who come in here weekly and don't say its a choice and simply say "This is the spec I'm using and it works good for my threat, I recommend it to be used." Those people usually haven't even done endgame content. There are also people who come in here once a week and will read that post then immediately think IIT isn't needed at all.

If this is what you really said then I must be blind. You never said it was a choice, all you said was that its not a requirement and Chrisfarly said that it doesn't matter since its only 2 attacks per minute on a 2 sec swing timer.


If you are going to suggest that IIT isn't needed then you need to be specific and say WHEN it isn't needed because there are situations where it is needed and there are people who don't realize that it is ideal to have it on some fights.

Isn't that the definition of a choice? Either you take it, or you don't, since it isn't required. I see what Zurai is saying about having the option, it's similar to not taking abominations might if you have a enhance shammy providing unleashed rage. However, it's still too situational imo, as Suno has pointed out. I think people can decide if they want to take that risk or not.

If you spec IIT there is still no reason you can't jam 1 point into Necrosis without losing essential talents (eg. 52/8/11), yes its just 1 point but on a point per point basis there isn't anything else you could reach that will provide as much threat gain.

1) you're having a stupid argument.
2) It's a choice if you want to get it or not.
3) Necrosis > Sudden Death
4) Griefknight - They were saying that having the 6% is required, not that DKs were specifically required to get it.

Can we move on to productive topics?

It is not always a choice, its a choice on some fights. I highly doubt anyone who actually tanks endgame content would not get it either because you will most likely have DPS as your second spec.

Honestly, should I tell my guilds prot warrior and feral not to get IW and ITC because I can do IIT?

There really isn't anything to discuss.

Current Endgame Content
XT - You spec Blood and you win.
Steelbreaker - You spec Blood and pop CDs during P3 fusion punch and work out a tank rotation.
Hodir - You spec Blood and work out a CD rotation with your healers for Frozen Blows.
Mimiron - You spec Blood and work out a CD rotation for P1 Plasma Blast.
Thorim - You spec Blood and work out a tank rotation and use a CD on 7+ stacks unbalancing strike hits.
General - You spec Blood and pop IBF each surge.
Yogg - You keep crushers from channeling and properly tank the adds in P1/P3.
Algalon - You spec Blood and do a tank rotation for phase punches of some sort and get a GS for each Big Bang on the MT.

What else do we have to talk about? How to increase our threat? You get threat gear and good game because you shouldn't need more threat then that.

I can understand discussing 3.2 changes and how they will change DK tanking but we aren't a brand new class anymore so its the same simple stuff each patch.

Well, I've been trying to come up with a more unique tanking build for Death Knight. The first one is the one I'm using right now, and the second is what I'm thinking I should change it to. Do you think this is a good idea? A bad idea? Would it work or not? Any help would be nice. Also, if this thing would work, do you think I should adjust it to fit in max impurity to improve DnD damage even more?

The World of Warcraft Armory


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