Thanks for the clarification. I should have looked at my in game tabs instead of trusting armory.

Hi guys....I was just thinking yesterday....Ok Incite is Nice ....gives us 20% extra crit on HS and 15% on Cleave and is awesome for ToC.

How about a build like this though???

The World of Warcraft Armory


that build with either glyph of cleave or glyph of bladestorm would be for fights with aoe depending on whether more than 2 targets to aoe (Anub, Kolog) or just 2 (Twin Valkyr). My thought behind it is that ok I may not have the 15% chance to crit extra on cleave which will apply the DW to targets easier as welll but I was thinkin of the following:

with 120% extra dmg, cleave instead of an average 2800-3000 hit dmg it will have an average hit of approx. 4.5 to 5k. Now that means that when it crits it will be about 10-11k no? maybe even a bit more....wouldnt that overall be more dmg in a long run than criting for 6-7k avg without imp cleave? and with ICC comin we will get back to around 40-43% unbuffed crit so about 50% buffed so it will probably be preferred to incite build for aoe fights....then an Incite Build with Bladestorm or Execute glyph would be the preffered single target spec....so you got both and switch around through dual spec as neccesary....your thoughts would be appreciated

No, imp cleave works on BONUS cleave damage. Meaning instead of 210 or w/e it is EXTRA dmg, you get 460 or so (rough numbers). if it was +120% TOTAL cleave damage, then noone would ever play arms - fury cleave build would dominate everything :0.

Now the build I came up with - and so far had some testing on (not enough to recommend to anyone, but enough to start a discussion) - is an aoe arms build:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Glyphs of Execute/Cleave/Rending
The key though - its DUAL WIELD arms. You dual wield - FAST axe MH, and fast oh - preferably a sword (thus dual axe/sword spec) for maximum rage gain. Drawback is - you have to get access to the 1handers comparable with your 2h.

So far testing limited to stuff like kologarn is pretty successful - my gear is FAR from optimal and i can get results close to my TG build (aka 11k+ dps)

Why this build works?

First of all, it makes full use of cleave. Compared to TG it has +15.3% cleave damage (TG penalty/2h spec/wrecking crew effects summed up) and +20% cleave critical chance Axe spec adds another 4% damage or so (with the insanely high crit rate - in realms of 80%+ for cleave ) for total of 20% dmg AND 20% crit - or if you prefer around 35% extra damage . Both are huge - and offset lack of Flurry easily. The fact that weapons are fast doesnt actually matter for cleave - since the rage cost is so much lower (counting the MH swing loss), and endless rage. Faster cleave use also nullifies lack of imp cleave. So overall even with lesser weapons and stats on them we do MORE cleave damage.

For single target dps we have execute. Execute that unlike fury version hits really hard (axe spec no tg penalty enrage vs loss of 2h spec) - around 20-25% harder. With a 1.5 speed weapons counting raid buffs, some moderate haste, blood frenzy we are talking about around 4 hits per second - 3 cleave hits and 1 offhand swing. Couple it up with instants, and we talk about 7 attacks every gcd - each having 9% chance of proccing SD. Other gcd are filled with rend/op, and occasional MS - or just regenerating rage. Below 20% you can simply spam execute/cleave with VERY good results.

This is mostly a curiosity build - it doesnt work at all for single target (although some single target arms playstyles MIGHT work with icecrown gear - they seem to scale faster. Too early for me to tell - I personally doubt it, but dont discard possibility that it might work). It excels on fight like anub - with prolonged sub 20% phase, and constant adds - but even then - in my guild we kill adds too fast recently for this build to "work" (as in be competitive with TG). But Ive seen a lot of guilds doing more single target damage, and less add aoe - which propels this build.

However unlike other "curiosity builds" this one is actually somewhat viable, and in certain circumstances, can be a build of choice for Anub, and maybe few other fights.

Damm I must have been so tired when I was thinkin of it last night...you are TOTALLY right Shha ...didnt think the bonus is only on the extra dmg of cleave hahaha....

Well I do not think that in any case 1hander dual wieldin would surpass the damage of a 2hander since you will have low dmg on Overpower low damage on Mortal Strike, Low Damage on Slam and on almost every attack of arms, which is preety much BASED for the most part on Weapon Damage + mechanics.

Now of course theory applies different in game than in the mind so you may be right and it may be nicer for aoe....but I d assume you mean with the Lionheart Axe from Anub 605 Top End dmg and such weapons....with those maybe it would do nice damage. But I cant see how 1200 Max dmg ilvl 258 [Justicebringer] would be beat by any comp of 1 handers ...that weapon has evil power on it!!

Well the main thing is, you barely use the attacks that go from weapon damage. You dont slam at all (you dont even have imp slam), and you use MS/OP only if Sudden death is not procced AND you have excess rage (rare).

ye but in those cases that you will have to use MS or OP it will hit for very low damage compared to having a 2hander and SD will not proc so often as to cover every global cooldown regardless of the amount of hits you do between every global cooldown I think. In addition even the cleave and HS spammin would have reduced damage because of using one handers...and also you have to think that you wont even have dual wield specialization so your offhand will produce very little rage because it hits so little. lastly you have to also remember that you will have TONS of misses because automatically after dual wielding our 7% (with shammie) or 8% hit will seem a bit low without precision talent in such fast weapon speeds and there will be so many misses as I already said. Deep Wounds Damage will be reduced rend damage will be reduced....overall I dont see how you can cover all of the above damage reduction, just from the fact of hitting faster and assuming SD will proc every gcd....keep the test though and link some results

Thanks so much =)
I'll keep sticking with my molten then

Ok so I just got the Bloodfang hood off ONY25, and i know that it's a damn good head piece, but would it be worth losing the tier 8.5 4 set pice bonus? Assuming of course that i use the exact same gems and enchants and that i have a tier 8.5 helm as things stand right now

Thanks for all the great tips on glyphs and rotations, that will be very helpful on maximizing my dps, a lot has to do with my gear but my dps is so bad im having a hard time getting the right rotations.

Very good information, keep it coming

did a search, but could not find anything...

what professions benefit the warrior most end game?

i was looking at blacksmithing, for the two additional sockets, but wasnt sure where else to go

figured maybe JCing, since it will net me better stats from my sockets, which will be even better when combined with the bonus two) but sticking with mining also seems like a decent plan, since i get an additional 55 Sta that wont involve taking up an gem slots

also, maybe enchanting? are the rings the only ench only buffs available?