Thread of Ultimate Stupidity - Page 816

Anobix · 01/15/10, 2:04 PM

As others have said, I have never seen much evidence for why anyone would use the rotation ABx6-AM, especially if MBAR had procced previously, to which there is no reason not to use it when you have a ABx4 stack already available. The only thing I can think of for his reasoning to do ABx6 is that it brings him really close to guaranteeing MBAR to proc, but even with that the 'general' rotations are either ABSpam-Mbar (very mana intensive, only used if you have the mana to spare) and ABx4-AM/Mbar where you stack to ABx4 then cast AM regardless of proc in order to conserve mana, and more often than not (RNG forgiving) you will get an mbar proc in there to use on the ABx4 stack.

With that rotation, proper gem usage, and an evocation the person should rarely run out of mana unless something bad happens (death, interrupted evocation, etc) to which asking for an innvervate (if not needed) is fine [I do it occasionally from our boomkin].

I hope that makes sense, if not I can try to re-clarify if needed.

As for Abarr it should really only be used if his stack will run out before he can set himself to cast AM or another AB. That or on fights where movement is common and needing to squeeze out extra damage (Festergut for instance or Rotface).

NateB · 01/15/10, 2:10 PM

Prior to 2pcT10 it's not universally bad to AB spam, especially if there is a reason to mana dump for damage -- in ToC, for instance, to break shields, close portals/volcanoes, or when Icehowl was stunned, in Icecrown it's only useful for killing putricide Oozes or the frost mage in gunship, if the mage is on the other ship. However, the mage doing that dumping needs to be mindful of the mana dump, and then evocate right after (assuming s/he will be below 50%).

That said, if/when he has 2 pc t10, having the "push it to the limit" buff up is such a huge increase in dps that you should never let it drop (unless if brings you below the GCD, which should never happen except during lust + IV, and even then not without massive haste).

Moreover, you may want to direct him to Kavan's posts, where he's illustrated that, even before 2pcT10, using MBAM whenever its up is barely a DPS loss (depending on gear/spec it's ~2.7% less than a pure ABSpam), for 1/4 of the mana, and should never require an evocation in most raid settings. Moreover, if he is regimented in using MBAM whenever it procs, he will almost always have the mana to fish for a proc beyond 4 stacks.

It will never result in perfect DPS, but its a good start and will hopefully make him more comfortable to later optimize his casting.

Zalthor · 01/15/10, 2:11 PM

With the updated spreadsheet, I realized that out of the three daggers I have(Icefall Blade(H), Dirk of the Night Watch(H), and Steel Bladebraker), the two 1.4spd daggers are the best dps. From the pocket guide I know that the fastest dagger should have DP and the other dagger, IP. Now, in this case, with two 1.4spd daggers, am I correct in my assumption that DP should go on the MH? And, is that what the spreadsheet automatically does?

Millamber · 01/15/10, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Gediablo

I got 2 questions both regarding Vigilance on a mage.

1 - While Mirror Images are up does the Vigilance buff transfer threat to the warrior?

2 - How does passive threat reduction talents like Arcane Subtlety affect the amount of threat the Vigilance buff transfer to the warrior?

While I'm not sure about #1 (my guess would be that 0 threat would go to the warrior because the mage is doing 0 threat - it's already 'pre-transferred' to the images -- I haven't tested this), I am fairly certain that passive threat reduction talents would affect vigilance buff transfer. Whatever final threat the buffed person is generating is where the 10% is removed and transferred to the warrior.

vALKHAN · 01/15/10, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Maxtastic

I have been getting the same results for the past week, On Tuesday I went from a 4pT9 to 2pT9/2pT10 and lost about 500-600 dps as well.

I spent an entire day yesterday testing and swapping gear to try and figure it out, but as far as I can tell its a dps loss to split up the 4pT9.

the only thing I did not test was to go back to a no-reaping build with the 2pT10 and see what the dps was like, but without the extra SS I do not see how that would be very beneficial.

I should add that my 4pT9 is 232 gear, not 245, so the T10 pieces should have been an even larger upgrade for me.

well, so it seems that this reaping build with 2pt9 + 2pt10 is not better than the no-reaping build with 4 pc T9. Even with reaping and bonus of 2 pieces T10, the scourge strike can't compete with 5/5 dark convinction and 4 pc T9 bonus.
Now I have to test the no reaping build with 2 T9 + 2 T10 to see if the difference and dps loss is given by 4 pc t9 bonus or dark convinction

riinuka · 01/15/10, 2:31 PM

His gear selection when looking to things that are upgrades seemed really skewed to me. He keeps saying the rotation he uses is based on a post here (regarding fishing) and advice from a mage in the best Ally-side guild we have (which isn't saying much, our server's backwater.)

The only reason I got mad at him for asking for an innervate is because I knew it was his own darn fault he got there in the first place (not switching to a more mana friendly rotation). His DPS isn't so important that he needs to take it from the way-undergeared tree (who honestly did need it), especially since this case I recall was towards the middle of Icehowl (which has plenty of 'you can't cast right now' phases, he shouldn't go OOM there.)

Oh, he's also said strange things about set bonuses.. I won't even go there.. Thanks again! I'll see what happens from here on.

Drakkan · 01/15/10, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jisora

We're doing fine with the first four fights in ICC-25, but our second 10-man has been struggling to get by Marrowgar, due at least in part to a constantly changing group make-up. In particular, the tanks in this second group tend to be either 2 DKS (Blood and Unholy) or DK and Druid. We have a fluctuating mix of healers who. for various reasons, are not usually in our 25-man group. They tend to be less raid experienced and do not include a Pally. (Often have a combo of Holy Priest, Disc Priest, Shaman, and/or Druid.) Average gear score for the raid on most runs is probably 4800-5000. DK tanks both around 5k and the Druid a little higher.

Our basic problem is healers running OOM. Seems to be more related to tank healing rather than raid. Several theories have been suggested by various group members.

Theory 1. "DK and Druid tanks are nerfed due to loss of Dodge. This fight is not doable without a Warrior or Pally tank." It has been pointed out that DK tanks of all specs have successfully tanked all ICC content to date, but the response to that has been that those folks are all uber-geared vs. our guys with only 5k gear scores. (My Unholy DK is about 30% Dodge + Parry combined inside ICC, down from 50%. I gem a mix of stam and dodge, and have about 45k buffed health.)

Theory 2. "We could do this with DK/Druid tanks, but then we really must have a Pally healer."

Theory 3. Poor individual cooldown management by one or more tanks or healers. (This is always a possibility...right?)

Theory X. "There's something else we're not thinking about."

I think our next step needs to be to get serious about combat parsing and compare our Group-1 10-man vs. Group-2. We have not generally done this, and I would appreciate any suggestions on the best current tool. I gather there are at least three out there: WWS, WoL, and EHFS.

I would also appreciate any inputs on our first two theories above, particulary from anyone who has done the Marrowgar fight at our gear level, without the benefit of shield-bearing tanks or Pally priests.

Thanks

Alright, no one crush me for this but... IMO druid tanks are some of the best in ICC. Keep in mind my main is a DK tank and I absolutely love the DK and have never had a problem on any fight in ICC. My alt is a druid tank with worse gear and is performing as well.

The dodge nerf effects all classes nearly equally. So whoever said it effects druids and DKs significantly more is simply wrong. Druids 1 min cooldown on barkskin for LM is HUGE as you wont be needing anything for bone storms really and they just allow cooldowns to come back.

I run without a pally healer a lot. Any class is fit to be a tank healer as long as they know what they are doing. Holy priest, disc priest, and shammy are great tank healers and rival pally healers.

Sounds to me that your group is either just A) inexperienced or B) has a poor raid leader. With those gear scores they should not be struggling. Cooldown timing could be off and buffs and debuffs may be off. IE keep fairie fire, demoralizning shout, and infectious wounds on the boss. Make sure the DK tank has blade barrier up 100%, so on and so forth.

Wowmetersonline.com is the website i use for our guild. This works very well. You could compare damage taken per second by tanks and healing done per second by healers between your groups.

EDIT: Also, with your comment about healers going OOM, check overheals on meters and see if you have replenishment in that group - Shadow priest, Survival Hunter (spec'd with it), or Mage (I believe it is frost).

Junox · 01/15/10, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Q: My raid leader wants me to use Sunder Armor, I don't want to lose DPS.
A: Do it. It's a DPS loss for you, but a DPS gain for the raid.

Of course, if you are the only raid member who is able to put up this debuff, it's a massive dps gain for you, regardless of not doing anything the first 8 seconds of a fight.

Amrahil · 01/15/10, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by mcdubjr

Yes, but if you do it this way a healer could end up getting interrupted by Vile Gas. So what is worse, having to stop healing to move to a spore, or getting interrupted?

That is a good point, and I guess statisticly the chance of the healer having to move with 6 players in melee is much lower than if you are with 4 people at ranged. So having the 2 healers in melee on 10man seems the lesser of the 2 evils.

Ramón · 01/15/10, 3:24 PM

@Seizmilk
Its a waste aswell if you are using it instead of a slam, slam is good. Heroic strike is a not real dps improvement, what you "gain" is nothing more then 495 +dmg on your autoswing, +crit if you are incite talented. Exchange for 50+ rage.

sandro226 · 01/15/10, 3:26 PM

Originally Posted by xmod2

Breaking off for beasts will screw up your rotation, as will clipping envenoms early, energy capping, not using /startattack macros, not vanishing on cooldown for overkill, etc. I notice when I play 'sloppy' while raid leading, my dps won't approach my spreadsheet ideal.

I definitely think I'm clipping envenoms. I also found a few settings that were off, so I'm within 2k of my spreadsheet now. Based on having to kill 2 blood beasts, adding in clipping envenom buffs, I think that may explain most of the difference. Hopefully I get a chance to check some parses on Festergut soon, I think that's the closest to a "Patchwerk" fight I can get right now.

Ergzay · 01/15/10, 3:39 PM

Sorry if this kind of a newb question. I recently came back to the game after not playing since Ulduar. I used to use entirely FFB and succeed quite well with it. I seem to be doing moderately good DPS for my gear in raids (of the ones I can get into, I hate GS which is new), but I keep getting trolled by anal players who seem to hate FFB. So my question is such, is FFB still viable as a single target boss dps spec, if not what fire spec is? I'm not interested in arcane much unless I absolutely have to.

Malpractices · 01/15/10, 3:41 PM

I have been tanking in the frost tree for a while now. The one thing I am beginning to question why we go down so far in the frost tree though. After toying around with some numbers I have come up with the following build:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Page one shows the standard build of 15/51/5. Below are the gains and losses from the standard build compared to 23/43/5.

Gains:
+1 expertise
+3% stamina
+5% crit to all attacks
+6% Strength(+parry from forceful deflection)

Losses:

Tundra Stalker (-15% to all attacks)
-2 sec on Icebound fortitude.
Howling Blast and Rime procs
Having to use Frost Strike instead of Howling Blast for Killing Machine.
-7% damage from IT and FS

I seems you will lose a little bit of threat(More loss for trash losing Howling Blast). The only loss on the Mitigation/EH/Avoidance side is -2 seconds on Icebound Fortitude. Can we afford to lose that much threat to gain defensive stats?

Edit: Forgot to add in the lost point from Glacier Rot

Atreyu · 01/15/10, 4:46 PM

Hi guys, I have a question that has been bothering me for a while now, concerning the Black Magic enchant versus the 63 Spell Power one..
Imho, I'd say that 63SP is more profitable for long fights and the dps overall would be higher.. but I've seen so much people with Black Magic that I started to doubt myself.. so what do you guys think about that?

Black Magic or +63SP? Wich wins?

Eralun · 01/15/10, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Oniwasaka

What do i do wrong ?

Well, what is your problem?

I don't think a lot of people can help you if you just tell us 'it' isn't working anymore.