Thread of Ultimate Stupidity - Page 994

arlen · 03/19/10, 6:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kraftwerk

When I pick Relentless Earthsiege Diamond is only says 21agi. The 3% dmg to crits aint listed on the gem. And it wasnt before I updated to version Version 93i neither.

It's just not listed in the name because of length issues, but the proper stats are added.

Eurytos · 03/19/10, 6:42 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Would it be possible to move prime311's list of mechanics theorized/tested/confirmed (ICC Hunter Strats and Tips) into the first post of the thread, and keep it updated? It's a handy reference, and people have been posting updates to it for a while nicely, but having it buried on page 3 of the thread, and (I think) not updated with people's results makes it less useful than it could be.

I agree with this. I actually had this conversation with a guild member about reformatting it and posting it on my own but I didn't want to get an infraction.

Sit · 03/19/10, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bossakula

This is actually exactly backwards, although the final conclusion is certainly correct. That conclusion, "Arcane Mages should spend their talent points on +hit talents, saving their gear itemization points for haste or crit", is spot on.

However, hit% on gear is far cheaper than hit% from talents. Think of it this way, most "DPS talents" provide a 1% increase in DPS per talent point. The +hit talents in the mage tree are, by this reckoning, relatively average DPS talents. They are certainly not cheap, compared to, e.g., Netherwind Presence.

At the same time, hit rating on gear is very cheap, since the conversion from hit rating to hit% is so favorable.

The reason Alia correct is that there aren't any true "DPS talents" to use in lieu of the +hit talents. Given that there are no reasonable alternatives that provide 1% DPS per talent point (or even close to that), the best talent choice is to take all the +hit talents (precision and arcane focus). That choice should be mated to gearing that puts your hit percentage close to the cap as possible after talents.

Thanks! This was very helpful and not snarky

trakker · 03/19/10, 7:37 PM

This is where I get really confused:

________________ Quote from Ole Frosty ______________

"However if you're tanking anything that has a remote chance of killing you, aka any boss your guild is progressing on, especially after the patch, you will be only hurting your guilds progression chances by not being blood. Its basically a free +15% effective health. And timing the 10k Death strikes is another 8-10k effective health. (I realize the meaning of EH, it could be viewed as a stretch so I'll put the disclaimer again, only when you are waiting for damage to happen with DS ready to go, and not in danger of being 1 shot.)

But 15% EH and 8-10k EH sometimes, is a long shot better then anything in frost or unholy, making it the no brainer choice for DK tanking progression."

____________________ Close Quote ____________________

If this is actually a true statement, then every DK should be Blood and maybe Frost as an offspec for trash. Which seems ridiculous to me. My biggest issue I face today isn't whether I have survivability, whether I generate proper threat or such: in fact, quite the opposite. I am typically the last tank standing save the Paladin that has thier cheat death available (can't remember the ability).

This is however, the heart of my question. I am unable to discern based on my limited experience on PTR and reviewing posts to see how it is "Blood or nothing for progression tanking". If that is the case, and DK's are being relegated to a single tanking tree (like Prot vs Arms vs Fury), so be it. I truly hope not though.

Graveripper · 03/19/10, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by trakker

This is where I get really confused:

________________ Quote from Ole Frosty ______________

"However if you're tanking anything that has a remote chance of killing you, aka any boss your guild is progressing on, especially after the patch, you will be only hurting your guilds progression chances by not being blood. Its basically a free +15% effective health. And timing the 10k Death strikes is another 8-10k effective health. (I realize the meaning of EH, it could be viewed as a stretch so I'll put the disclaimer again, only when you are waiting for damage to happen with DS ready to go, and not in danger of being 1 shot.)

But 15% EH and 8-10k EH sometimes, is a long shot better then anything in frost or unholy, making it the no brainer choice for DK tanking progression."

____________________ Close Quote ____________________

If this is actually a true statement, then every DK should be Blood and maybe Frost as an offspec for trash. Which seems ridiculous to me. My biggest issue I face today isn't whether I have survivability, whether I generate proper threat or such: in fact, quite the opposite. I am typically the last tank standing save the Paladin that has thier cheat death available (can't remember the ability).

This is however, the heart of my question. I am unable to discern based on my limited experience on PTR and reviewing posts to see how it is "Blood or nothing for progression tanking". If that is the case, and DK's are being relegated to a single tanking tree (like Prot vs Arms vs Fury), so be it. I truly hope not though.

In order for even the new WOTN to be 15% more EH, the ability in question would have to had one shot you. While it is powerful, it is not this powerful. The more realistic will be 7-8% EH, and will truly shine on perhaps heroic lich king (where I hear his hits can approach 1 shot range in p1, in addition to soul reaper later on). However, simply calling it 15% EH is folly.

Puruvana · 03/19/10, 8:11 PM

Hoi.

After reading a lot of pages and messing with the search function aswell, I still was not able to find an exact answer to my question, which is as follows.

Do the buffs that effect SrS, and can be kept up with Chimera, stack up?

At the moment the % dmg modifiers are :

The tier 10, 2 set bonus with 15%
Culling of Herd 3%
Sanctified Retribution, Ferocious Inspiration, Arcane Empowerment 3%
Trick of the Trade 15%

Meaning when the tier procs and by any miracle the CoT and Sanctified Retribution, Ferocious Inspirationor Arcane Empowerment are also up and I can ask a rogue for TotT, does my SrS go up by 36%?

My apologies if people have to repeat themselves, since I'm pretty sure it has been somewhere in these forums, I just can't find it.

Cheers,
Puru.

Sylvanfury · 03/19/10, 8:34 PM

Yes, all spells/effects that increase your damage by a percent (except hysteria since it's physical damage only) will make it so your serpent sting will stay at the increased damage as long as it is refreshed by chimera shot. Also, it will maintain whatever crit rating you had at the time you cast serpent sting (useful if you still use 2pc tier 9)

Radroit · 03/19/10, 9:17 PM

Originally Posted by Lilbitters

@ Radroit

Just looking at the overall log, one thing I quickly noticed by checking debuffs was the fact that Tyns only was Ice Tombed 5 times versus your 10 (well 9, but you were died once with Frost Beacon) so that will cut into your activity time.

Secondly, you did a lot more meleeing behind the Ice Tombs, presumably in P2, where I suspect the other hunter was standing behind one Ice Tomb to LoS the Frost Bomb while attacking the other Ice Tomb. This would definitely account for the Auto Shot increase Tyns has over you (Tyns had a total of 716 vs Radroit's 690), but really the 26 auto shot difference could be from a huge variety of things in addition to the previously mentioned Ice Tomb time. Examples would be:
Distance/time spent running out of Blistering Cold (were you over-running it in comparison to the other hunter?)
Strategy/Time spent resetting Mystic Buffet (were you sitting behind and not shooting for ~6-8 seconds, or were you already standing at the edge and strafing behind for ~1-2 second to just LoS the refresh when Mystic Buffet had only a few seconds left in duration?)
Procs and haste (Tyns used Rapid Fire 26 times vs Radroit's 11. Also Radroit had 71 Quick Shots procs vs Tyrn's 75 which was possibly due to not being in AotD as much with Radroit having a 32.8% AotV uptime vs Tyrns 5.2%)

So overall, most likely less shots were due to having been Ice Tombed more and not using Rapid Fire/Readiness/Rapid Fire on the pull and then again at the start of P3, leaving you with less than half of your possible usages for it.

One more thing I would point out is that it's a mistake to believe Arcane Shot is a DPS increase over Steady Shot in your gear. If you look at the log it'll break down like this:

Arcane Shot Average hit: 2439.3 (41 total) ~28% hits
Arcane Shot Average crit: 6061.5 (104 total) ~72% crits
--------------------------------------------------------------
Arcane Shot Average Damage Contribution: 5047.3

Steady Shot Average hit: 2314.0 (48 total) ~22% hits
Steady Shot Average crit: 5758.6 (168 total) ~78% crits
Steady Shot Average Bleed from Piercing Shots: 1727.6 ~78% Bleeds
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steady Shot Average Damage Contribution: 6348.3

That's also not taking into account that it's very possible some of the Arcane Shot damage numbers are inflated due to using Improved Steady Shot procs, which Chimera Shot or Aimed Shot would benefit from more anyways.

Also, the Rogue Victum was not using Expose Armor which was an enormous Raid DPS loss for the 2 Marksmanship hunters, himself, the Ret Paladin, and even some for the Feral Druid and Protection Paladin tanks. This would have only increased the superiority of Steady Shot over Arcane Shot even more.

Lilbitters, that's a great breakdown and analysis and I thank you very much. How I could have overlooked Piercing Shots in considering Arcane vs' Steady is beyond me. I was holding off on the second RF but clearly that was a mistake as well. The large difference in AotV uptime stems from me going into viper when I'm about to be tombed because I'm so anal about not running out of mana.

I will again remove Arcane from my rotation and be more disciplined with Rf/Readiness?RF usage.

Again, my thanks.

Windcomfort · 03/19/10, 9:54 PM

It is good tool. But, it will be great if there is MAC version?

ward0112 · 03/20/10, 12:52 AM

What is the optimal Meta priority / rotation

I have just taken the demonology role in our 25 mans.

I just wanted to check your guys opinions of the optimal priority system for Metamorphosis phase. What I have read was pre 3.3 and just wanted to make sure that I was up to date. I am more than happy with optimal rotation / priorty listing for standard DPS outside the metamorphosis cooldown.

I always try to use my instant casts - CoE (or CoD if boomy/unholy DK) / Corruption / life tap to sneak up on the boss so that I don't loose any time getting into melee range. I also make sure that I have a reasonable mana pool - and my life tap glyph is fully charged before popping meta

I assume that once you are in metamorphosis you should attempt to maintain the standard keep immolate / corruption / curse on the target and weave shadow bolts and incinerates (with molten core) for MOBs above 35% and soul fire if they are below.

Question 1 - do you immediately refresh immolate / corruption once you pop into metamorphosis due to the 20% damage buff - or wait until they expire like normal

Question 2 - How soon do you pop immolation aura - the cooldown is as long than the effect of metamorphosis so you cant double cast in on metamorphosis - do you just sqeeze it into your rotation at a convienient point making sure that the 15 second duration of the spell finishes before your metamorphosis aura does - or is there something I am missing.

Question 3 - what is the best way to use shadow cleave - It is on a melee cast so it must be queued and then wait for the next melee swing. Do you use it for single target DPS - or only when there is more than one MOB? Can you macro this spell with another instant cast to reduce GCD lost from waiting for your melee swing.

Question 4 - should I not bother about moving in on GCD and just use the charge. It seems to be a waste of a GCD and I understand it doesn't do any damage it self.

my last comment is that I tend to position just outside the 110% aggro range when I am in caster form so that the movement into melee is minimised - I have seen other demo locks always go back to maximum range. Do people do this because they aren't confident managing their aggro and want a buffer incase they pull or is there something I am missing.

Noryhorn · 03/20/10, 2:03 AM

Hi first time poster and i just have a quick question i been doing lots of 10 mans and i finally was able to jump in to 25 mans

i use to raid a butt ton with my hunter but after 3 years i got bored and now moved on to my DK and i love it

my problem that i'm running right now is choosing what weapon i should use

ok the problem is

[Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter] (non-heroic)

or

[Ramaladni's Blade of Culling] (non-heroic)

with Ramaladni's Blade of Culling on i am at 25% ArP and wayyyyy over Exp...loosing this weapon would put me down to 20%

but i seen tons of Dk with 'Bone Arbiter' and i keep hearing its the best till you get deeper in ICC

linweyn · 03/20/10, 5:50 AM

Hello

i saw some comments about the gunship trinket. well last night i got it heroic mode and im not to sure about using it. What other options should i consider?. I am currently sitting around 62k buffed with 1 stm trinket so im abit confused as what to use as my second trinket.
Oh and i have looked everywhere for the expertise cap.. sitting at 59 atm and im starting 2 think its getting silly. Any other comments on my gear are apretiated. im new 2 bear

joegrizly · 03/20/10, 6:17 AM

i'm the best holy paladin pve.. i'm better then diamondtear from paragon in pve and zilea in pvp

bump this next raid and you'll do great

YouTube - Thuggish Ruggish Bone

nebekenazar · 03/20/10, 9:22 AM

I agree that we should get more credit then mages for being able to sustain dps, but it seems that it comes at a cost. In my experience we dont generate nearly as much dps as other casters and often get looked down upon for that, it seems as though blizzard has decided that a shaman is just there to increase the stats of its fellow players.

Magetank · 03/20/10, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Noryhorn

Hi first time poster and i just have a quick question i been doing lots of 10 mans and i finally was able to jump in to 25 mans

i use to raid a butt ton with my hunter but after 3 years i got bored and now moved on to my DK and i love it

my problem that i'm running right now is choosing what weapon i should use

ok the problem is

[Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter] (non-heroic)

or

[Ramaladni's Blade of Culling] (non-heroic)

with Ramaladni's Blade of Culling on i am at 25% ArP and wayyyyy over Exp...loosing this weapon would put me down to 20%

but i seen tons of Dk with 'Bone Arbiter' and i keep hearing its the best till you get deeper in ICC

That is his armory. The World of Warcraft Armory - Rental @ Thunderhorn - Profile

Use Bryntrolll because you do not need the expertise from Ramaladnis. you're alrdy at a whopping 53 with it on lol.
plus Bryntroll shld give you a boost in deeps with the higher weapon dmg and extra str.