Thread of Ultimate Suck - Page 366

nomoresecrets · 11/02/09, 4:18 AM

dont forget the expertise-benefit orcs have

Morfius Baltzar · 11/02/09, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by TimWischmeier

To prevent horrible misinformation: the strategie you advice is not one of the commonly accepted ones for hardmodes. It may work for heroics or earlier raidinstances. But as the discussion here is about endgame raiding and non-trivial content, your advices suck.

If you are the only Holy Paladin in a raid (or one of two in a 25 man raid), stack Int, get your HL down to about 1.3 seconds and spam as much HL as possible. If you are the second / third Holy Paladin in a raid, it is also viable to stack SP and replace a good amount of HL spam with FoL spam.

I have tryed my way in hard mode and it has worked fine so far even with very bad gear. A player who plays Holy paladin in end game content does't need to spam HL i have tryed end game and i had only spam HL when i wanted.

And instead to look on stuff with a bad attitude, why don't you think instead "Hmm this might work, i maybe should check it" you start immedietly to say it can't work.

Morfius Baltzar · 11/02/09, 6:46 AM

Originally Posted by brypay

Hi.. Im trying to figure all this stat mess out.. and i had a question about arm pen.. is there a cap and if there is what is it. and is there any kind of diminishing return effect..

Thanks

What stat mess? :s

If you are blood dk the right specc 50/0/21 then you should focus on 3 stats ArP,Ste,Crit.

khel · 11/02/09, 6:56 AM

Originally Posted by Druidark

no boomkins for anub
qq

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

7754dps on our kill, but due to mana issues, bad luck with eclipse, and having to combat rez, only 7267dps this week. FF Mages, Unholy DK's, Fury Warriors, and Ret Paladins are definitely our dps stars on this encounter, but Moonkins can still do "ok" compared to the rest.

I switched from a 2+2 setup to 4 T9, and specced out of IIS to get Intensity and Gale Winds. I would like to see other Anub-HC parses as well to compare with.

Ohrly · 11/02/09, 7:06 AM

Morfius, your confidence is an inspiration to us all, but could it possibly be that you've over-simplified the situation?

This particular medium for the further of paladin studies is in no way adverse to new ideas, but we do expect you to back up your arguments with a little more than opinions.

For instance, you say we want 44% holy crit, which would be 39% base ( around 710 rating with 8% from retribution ) you don't say whether you expect this when raid buffed, or unbuffed either. Please elaborate on why exactly 44% is the percentage you advocate.

Spell power is generally concidered one of the worst statistics for a paladin, so I find it strange that you not only press the issue, but specify ( a suprisingly vague ) number. Please go deeper into why we should get 2300-2600 spell power.

In regards to the haste, a 1.5 second holy light sounds acceptable, but you'll most likely find that a well geared paladin will be at, if not surpass that cast time naturally.

as for the mp5, I believe its actually impossible to get 1000 mp5 on gear, even with both of the solace of the defeated trinkets. More to the point, Intellect gives more mp5 than mp5, if concidering them both in terms if item level. So please further tease out your reasons for advising this particular number.

Finally I'd like to discuss your later comment:

. A player who plays Holy paladin in end game content does't need to spam HL i have tryed end game and i had only spam HL when i wanted.

It'd be very easy to brush this off as the type of ignorant comment which displays both a lack of understanding of the paladin mechanics, and of raid healing. Do you think that instead of all of us being wrong about how a Holy Paladin should play, you're perhaps being carried by the other healers in your raid?

jdh79 · 11/02/09, 7:20 AM

Originally Posted by Morfius Baltzar

I have tryed my way in hard mode and it has worked fine so far even with very bad gear. A player who plays Holy paladin in end game content does't need to spam HL i have tryed end game and i had only spam HL when i wanted.

And instead to look on stuff with a bad attitude, why don't you think instead "Hmm this might work, i maybe should check it" you start immedietly to say it can't work.

Honestly, I have a really hard time believing you can get 44% holy crit, 2300-2600 SP and 1000 mp5 while casting even in BiS gear. Pretty much the max Mp5 you can even get from gear/enchants without Mp5 gemming is around 400-500 while casting. Even if you have 20 gem slots, all gemmed for 10 mp5, that's still only going to take you to 700. If you are counting raid buffed AND using 2 mp5 trinkets, maybe you can come close to this. As far as getting 2300+ SP with that setup, it's not likely. Without gemming INT, you are getting no SP bonuses from your gems. And for 44% crit, you'd need to have all crit/mp5 gear in every slot.

However, the math on this has already been done. For a HL heavy playstyle, 1 INT = about 0.90 Mp5 and 1 mp5=about 0.25 crit (points not %). In gear itemization, 1 INT=0.5 mp5=1 Crit. Therefore, INT is a little less than twice as valuable as mp5 and mp5 is about twice as valuable as crit. Not stacking your best stat at all is going to be massively suboptimal.

If you want to use a FoL spamming style, there is no reason you need anything close to 1000 mp5. I can spam FoL literally forever without going OOM with about 300 unbuffed mp5. You need SP, SP and more SP for this, and you need 680 haste to hit the haste soft cap to make FoL even remotely competitive.

Morfius Baltzar · 11/02/09, 7:26 AM

Originally Posted by Ohrly

Morfius, your confidence is an inspiration to us all, but could it possibly be that you've over-simplified the situation?

This particular medium for the further of paladin studies is in no way adverse to new ideas, but we do expect you to back up your arguments with a little more than opinions.

For instance, you say we want 44% holy crit, which would be 39% base ( around 710 rating with 8% from retribution ) you don't say whether you expect this when raid buffed, or unbuffed either. Please alaborate on why exactly 44% is the percentage you advocate.

Spell power is generally concidered one of the worst statistics for a paladin, so I find it strange that you not only press the issue, but specify ( a suprisingly vague ) number. Please go deeper into why we should get 2300-2600 spell power.

In regards to the haste, a 1.5 second holy light sounds acceptable, but you'll most likely find that a well geared paladin will be at, if not surpass that cast time naturally.

as for the mp5, I believe its actually impossible to get 1000 mp5 on gear, even with both of the solace of the defeated trinkets. More to the point, Intellect gives more mp5 than mp5, if concidering them both in terms if item level. So please further tease out your reasons for advising this particular number.

Finally I'd like to discuss your later comment:

It'd be very easy to brush this off as the type of ignorant comment which dsplays both a lack of understanding of the paladin mechanics, and of raid healing. Do you think that instead of all of us being wrong about how a Holy Paladin should play, you're perhaps being carried by the other healers in your raid?

Hmm this was intresting, sure i will explain.

I say 44% crit chance since it easier to bounce around with whole numbers and you should have 44% without raid buffs. 44%+6% (from talent) = 50% Base Crit chance for Holy Light & Holy Shock

Then when you enter raid with a Boomkin you get +5% Crit chance, also shaman can give +5% Crit chance i don't remeber if they both stack was so long time ago i was in raid with both same time and having both buffs same time. And im not playing not same much on pala since im busy with levling a new Dk since i deleted my old one.

50%+5% (+5% if Shamana and Boomkin buffs stacks) = 55% (60%) Base Crit chance on Holy Light & Holy Shock

55%+10%= 65% (70%) Base Crit chance with Holy Shock

So you will have Basicly 65% (70%) Crit chance on Holy Shock easily and if it Crits your Base Crit chance on Holy Light which is 55% (60%) gets a +20% Crit chance making it to 75% (80%) Crit chance on 1 Holy Light.

The Spellpower i did say so big range since depends on what raid buffs you got and how hard the bosses hit.

And the 1000 Mp5 is for the time you won't Crit with Holy Light or Holy Shock. This is very easily achieved in my eyes, of course im still working on it but pretty hard since im on the server Wildhammer -roll eyes-

Murthy · 11/02/09, 10:51 AM

Heyya. Just a simple question. 27 SP or 23 Haste on back?

magealexis · 11/02/09, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Murthy

Heyya. Just a simple question. 27 SP or 23 Haste on back?

There is no "right" answer for this, just one that's right for you. Look at RAWR's relative stat values and see which is better for you.

irradicator · 11/02/09, 1:54 PM

Hey guys, this a bit of a noob topic and I'm sure it has been discussed like 1 million times but, I was just wondering hwat you thought of my execute rotation. When the target reaches 20%, I tend to spam whirlwind and execute repeatedly and when my rage is to low for execute and whirlwind is on cooldown I tend to pop heroic strike for the extra rage, however, I feel that this is not the most efficient way, but am wondering hwat you think. This brings me on to my next question, when I pop recklessness, what to do? Personally I feel my rotation is quite a good one but am wondering if there is anything else I can do to boost those numbers. I use Whirlwind, then execute, switch to battle stance and pop shattering throw then heroic throw then back to beserking stance just to just Whilrwind right after cooldown. Though I am not sure if I am missing somthing here? should I use execute at all if it is in execute phase? Personall i think so because it does high dps when you have 30 rage.

Ahbao · 11/02/09, 2:17 PM

very nice writtern..
didnt know u're king here tyrian

cheers (:

Inae · 11/02/09, 2:22 PM

Thanks =D definitly going and geting beserker now!

vaevictus · 11/02/09, 2:47 PM

LOL ^ So much awesome in this!!

Sorry for the wasted post couldn't help it.

WimpySmurf · 11/02/09, 5:26 PM

Remove.

Firtahla · 11/02/09, 6:52 PM

Small question: What haste rating is best for Unholy using the 16/0/55 spec in Blood presence and a 2H weapon.

xaragon · 11/02/09, 7:07 PM

Hi i have read pretty much all through this entire thread and of course certain things have been changed by blizz during this time, but i am unclear on a few points

with the opening rotoation i am using as follows from what i have read from here

ds, hs, hs, horn, ghoul, it, ps, hysteria, drw, hs, hs, hs, hs, ds, erw, hs, hs, hs, pest

is the above considered the norm? i am using glyph of disease.

it seems alot of people have different views on this. also with on use trinkets(20 sec duration) should i pop that just before i put the diseases down?

also i make sure as soon as a frost or unoly rune is availiable i use ds to get the death runes, otherwise i am always using hs, and when runes are on cooldown i use dc.

with diseases should i always be refreshing when i have the higest ap? for example there is still 10 secs left on the 2 diseases but im about to lose all my str buffs should i be refreshing it before i lose the buffs or just refresh it when its about to run out?

Deathknoob · 11/02/09, 8:02 PM

Originally Posted by Firtahla

Small question: What haste rating is best for Unholy using the 16/0/55 spec in Blood presence and a 2H weapon.

The soft cap is the most important and it is 4.5% (147.56 haste rating) from gear. As long as you don't drop under 4.5% everything should be fine.

Toeguard · 11/03/09, 2:56 AM

i recently switched from arms to fury and was wondering a couple of things.
what is the arm pen cap??
should i gem strickly for strength, or throw some crit gems in too?
does haste have anything to do with my dps?
thanks

Varies · 11/03/09, 10:09 AM

Hey first time poster wondering if i could get some comments on my gear, spec, or anything that can help me improve.

Profiler - Wowhead

sorry if i posted in the wrong thread, not sure where to really post at here.

klüger · 11/03/09, 10:33 AM

Looks good. I'd drop your bracers and get the Bejeweled Wizard ones. I'd also go with the belt from 25 faction champs (hard), drop the t9 gloves (get the anub 25 hard gloves) and get t9 shoulders instead (if you can). That said, this is a _very_ cursory glance and I naturally recommend you to try those items in a builder to see how your stats are before you commit to items. Its just in general I'd go for less spirit. Also, its a minor thing but stop gemming purifieds after you've done the two you need. You lose sp either way.
Otherwise you look good with regards to haste, crit&sp.

Its also an accepted truth that runspeed is the best enchant for boots.

Oh and since you are doing anub hard. Get the damn trinket ASAP! Nothing else matters, the normal one is a steady 3.3% dps inrease for me from just the proc. I'd invest all I had in getting both if I were you. Everything else is just details.

mortar · 11/03/09, 11:56 AM

Well i just started to play my rog again after a month..
with the new cap versus the previous one..is it worth to go 735 with runestone? because I got a friend with identical gear and the number shown in recount is pretty weak.. and when he told me his attack power is just around 4000 unbuff..

Fahar · 11/03/09, 12:25 PM

Hi there,

I've been following this thread for a while now.

Why did the title just changed from "SS All I ever wanted" to "Where the story ends".

Was there any major changes involving UH spec or DKs in general? I could not find anything.

Another question I have is: How is UH's DPS conpared to the other specs? Have any1 compared it yet?

Thank you

wingwraith · 11/03/09, 12:35 PM

The title of this thread changes often and is only a quick view into the OP's mood and opinion on the current evolution of the Unholy spec. It's nothing to be taken too seriously.
My favorite title was something to the effect of: "Scourge Strike; It's a Love Story".

Jezbelle · 11/03/09, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lesrek

All this coming from a paladin who hasn't downed a boss in ToGC in either 10 or 25. One of the paladins you quoted has completed all of ToGC 25 and is pulling 8k+ dps. How much dps are you doing that you are only finishing 5th in a guild that doesn't do heroics?

My guild is more "casual" though all dps are 5000+ dps in all fights with top 10 being above or near my dps.

In my current gear I pull:

6k+ on Beasts

7.5k+ on Jaraxxus [I cleanse Fel Fireball interrupt fails]

6k+ on Faction Champs

10.5k+ on Twins

6k+ on Anub [Melee is NOT allowed to touch white scarabs in our guild helps keep down spawns

]

I obviously don't know how to play don't listen to me LOL.

Edit: The casualness of my guild = 1 - 1.5 hours each week to do Toc 25 and Ony 25. That is all we do as a guild and the rest of the week is yours to do whatever you want to. We are basically made up of Alts/Altaholics so it works well for us.

Like i said though, don't listen to me I don't know what im doing

Jezbelle · 11/03/09, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Oh dear. Allow me to inform you sir, because this unfortunately is something the truly uninformed continuously bring up.

If we had unlimited GCDs available, you would be correct; the highest damage buttons would be the best to push first. However, we do not live in that system. We do have a finite number of GCDs, and even after the 4s CS change we still have quite some downtime. As such, we have to look at each ability's potential DPS to maximize our overall DPS. While I don't have the time to go into exact specifics, if you bothered to read the 3.2 thread you would have read the answer about 5 times as to why you are horribly wrong. Also, just because YOU sit at the top 5 DPS in your guild is not empirical evidence that you are correct; for all we know the rest of your guild-mates could be just as ill-informed as you are and making the same types of mistakes.

Furthermore, exorcism won't be doing such good damage once you drop the glyph. Obviously SoV Glyph isn't ideal for you, but you've already proven your incredible prowess at ret with the fact that you wear 38 expertise instead of 26, a full 3% above the cap.

I look forward to seeing the post in The Banhammer after the mods have their way with you.

EDIT: Your math above proves nothing and is horribly wrong. While for your short window you may have higher damage, in the long run your system proves nothing. After you open with your awful exo-first system, you will have many more GCD's you're just WAITING on...that's lots of lost DPS because you move each ability's effective cooldown up.

I disagree with your view of how you are using "effective dps" as the basis of your priority decisions.You have your opinion I have mine.

Being petty and calling for a Banhammer? Really now.

BTW I am well aware of my current expertise of 38 and NOT AT ALL happy with it, but that is how the drops panned out for me. For one, I unfortunately am still running around with Worldcarver for a weapon. I don't enjoy PvP in WoW so that's what I got for now.