So then, I've been reflecting upon the matter of allowing rogues a path of least resistance (tm) to a valid PvE mutilate spec.

The entire theory was ruined in itself by the recent rogue changes moving imp snd to combat tier 2 but the entire theory is based on the simple step of Blizzard moving DW spec to tier4 combat and imp snd to tier1 combat therefore allowing a spec such as:

41/15/5

Assassination talents are obviously on the way to mutilate with the random variations that people find viable

Combat talents however would preferably be something along the lines of moving imp snd to tier1 combat making the initial combat talents : 3 imp snd/2 imp ss/5 precision/5 dw spec

Subtlety would obviously be put into opportunity.

The entire question being stated from all this which is something that I fail at doing, crunching the math behind all this and see if it would actually stand any chance whatsoever against combat daggers even with the DW spec being changed into favoring mutilate.

I'm still trying to validate mutilate speccing to myself being 61 in the beta currently but it's getting increasingly harder and harder as the facts pile up

(Also if possible, play around with the idea of find weakness actually adding overall damage modifier of 10% - on white damage as well and see if that would help if a 10s finisher rotation would be assumed)

The actual data for computation isn't something that I'm entirely aware of as I dont know the average AP/crit rate of 70 rogues but I'll trust your capable minds to come up with something :)

Did you look for math in the rogue thread on the front page? There is lots of math there.

Its like catnip.

I'm not sure if the TBC rogue thread covers the numbercrunching you're asking for, but from trying out Mutilate vs Combat Daggers across 8 or so levels in Beta, it's fairly clear that Mutilate is a clear winner in sheer efficient grinding (the CS-DP-Mutilate-KS-Mutilate-Evis sequence is pretty tough to beat in terms of quick killing), whereas Combat Daggers has a significant edge in Instances due to Mutilate suffering heavily from lowered crit and increased poison resistance on the higher Elite mobs.

Intriguing to see a comment from you Bubba in this case but I'm already aware of those particular details but the question is where the threshold would be in terms of changes in order to turn mutilate into a valid raid spec instead of making it just-another-gimmick-specÂ*(tm).

I do believe that allowing DW spec within a valid mutilate spec and also allowing imp snd while forcing rogues to avoid fluff talents such as MoD would be a reasonable tradeoff for those wanting to something else than just spamming backstab/5pt snds for another year.

I have read most of the rogue threads on the boards and the overall consensus seems to be 15/41/5 unless you want to be subpar yet again (especially with the new surprise attacks)

Essentially turning the superior cp generation into something useful instead of just another mediocre "maintain snd while spamming special x"

I'm curious why this is its own thread.

15/41/5 is the likely stay the best dagger raiding build, no matter what the final talent trees end up.

It seems mutilate is a leveling build or for people that like doing less dps to have a new clicky.

Since DW spec is a good dps per talent point investment (and lower in the tree or in the case of warriors stronger than similar talents), I don't see it ever going lower than tier 4.