My question for those warriors that see their DPS stay the same on Patchwerk, is that because you're not using Rampage? Are you now at crazy levels of + hit? 20% or the like? I myself am missing DFT\ Kiss and + hit in my MH ( Servo ) and neck, so I am a bit behind the curve of the absolutely best geared DPS warriors.

My thoughts about this patch are as follows.
1. People dont understand that yes we can tank and dps given an item switch. But its also not ***that*** easy to get all this magical gear to truly do 1 job extremely well and also the other reliably.
2. If like I suspect most of this lateral progression in DPS is due to how BT scales and the 10% zerker AP bonus, Will we see BT reduced to 40%?
3. Rage gen at times is incredibly terrible... again some part of that is probably due to Weapon Skill ( human ) and the obvious new formula for rage gen.
4. What makes me sad is that every class got a huge boost to some aspect of their Raiding experience. Devastate was not a huge boost given tanks were fine.
5. Im sure some priest will tell me to STFU about their raiding\pvp ( since a majority of classes primary roles in raids = PVP roles ) boost ( or so ive been hearing from priests I know ) but you're a Support class that can spec shadow for some nice stuff in PVP.
6. This warrior DPS issue would be solved if they made encounters actually aggro sensitive. Rogues in my mind will always be better at DPS given how they can reduce their threat level. Why we had to see a warrior nerf because Blizzard designed encounters that SCREAMED "FURY DPS ROFFLEZ ZOMG CRITS PEW PEW" is something I'll probably never understand.
7. Most of why people believe warriors to be overpowered was simply and purely Blizzard itemization. The fact that Warriors dps gear in whatever form you choose is likely a compilation of gear from BWL\aq40\Naxx -- just makes it easier for the clearly most gear dependant class to be near the top of what an "ideal" set would be. Given that besides DW\fury 1h's from Naxx... a warrior could be running around in BWL level gear ( +PVP gear ) and be very similar to Naxx epic warriors coupled with how long BWL has been out and fully cleared, just means there are that many warriors with top of the line gear. Compare that to say Mages ( my new 60 pvp toon! ) where most of the best gear is clearly AQ40 post Huhu + Naxx ( 1 - 2 nef items ).
8. Life is not fair, and this fact is what has caused most of the whining about warriors in my mind. People that had more free time to play may have rerolled a warrior ( or been one like me ) and gotten some really nice gear and been pretty crazy in said gear. The way this game seems to be trending to where they want to make sure its completely socialist and everyone shares the exact same pool of awesome gear for little to no effort.
9. While Prot got some new abilities, id hardly call it a boost in comparison to the abilities that other classes received. The days are gone where one of your OTs could be high on the threat list while not taking any damage.

In my mind there were solutions to how to control a warriors damage or gear other than nerf said warrior ASSUMING he has said awesome gear. I agree rage needed to be dealt with, but plain and simple I should generate more rage than some moron in blues because ive spent the time to epicly gear my warrior. Anyone who DPS'd previous to the patch knew that rage was an issue sometimes even then, and that threat + GCD was just as big a control on our abilities as a rage nerf + some small dps boosts could be. Why not just make all warrior threat 100% and Def stance 130%. That would solve a huge chunk of this issue again without nerfing us to hell and back in PVP.

Ive been trying to explain to my guild exactly how useless I am now in PVP vs an equally geared class specced for PVP. As it is right now, its my belief that if every class speced for PVP with equivalent gear, the warrior is the weakest class. If that is Blizzard's intent, so be it, Id hope then they would work on letting us truly be meatshields in PVP with a shield and the ability to taunt a target and some other nice things. The fact that Warlocks have DC which completely removes the ability for their target to do anything about it... Why cant we have Taunt?

The people who respond to this and say "Oh well it was rediculous that you could tank and DPS and totally own in PVP" also dont understand that we cant do ANYTHING else in PVP. Tauren mill PVP sucked for warriors because in trying to close the distance we got burned down so easily it was a joke. They want to reduce our damage? Fine. Give me a TON more survivability. I can deal with balance any day. What I cant deal with is a nerf to what we once did ( melee damage ) and zero help in PVP survivability.

The arena system I believe is completely imbalanced for the warrior who would like to participate. Since every class besides the warrior has abilities they use for fights that make them much stronger when used, and they are now free to fire all of these abilities every arena. Deathwish while a nice cooldown ability, also weakens us ( though less now which is nice ) and is Fury only spec. Itimidating shout is the only CD non tree ability we have that is usable in arenas. When I fight in PVP I rarely see casters trinket up when they see me coming, theyre saving it for a higher threat target ( read : Lock\Hunter whatever ). In an arena now where one death of the opposing team is all thats required, every caster class will be trinket popping and sheeping and evocating and on and on which is only detrimental to warriors. All of the warriors "awesomeness" is not in the killing of the first target, but in the killing of 2-4 targets after that when the train gets going. This also usually requires one good healer focusing on you when playing an awake opponant. As my Warlock guildie argued back to me in response to this above statement -'Life Giving gem is on a 5 minute cooldown, most trinkets are 2 minutes, therefore you get the most benefit from the trinket aspect'. While a true statement in a pure mathematical sense, the amount of DPS put out by classes coupled with the verisimilitude of warrior mitigation from plate armor against magic( none ), and how we deal with dots and debuffs( Zero ways ) life giving gem's worth goes down quite a bit.

In summation, Im very disapointed with warriors, especially talents. Each 41 point talent is terrible
Rampage - At a certain point that 30 rage on 1 Bloodthirst ( given its a yellow attack ) will be more valuable. Rampage does not scale.
Endless Rage - I read this as the "we couldnt come up with a new type of MS that people wouldnt QQ about, so why not make 2h'ers of any kind require this for any semblance of ability to do anything.
Devastate - While OK in theory, I didnt see Prot tanks having trouble tanking when people actually allowed them to get aggro before going all out. Also its my understand that the threat is not game changing, so I view it as best a mediocre talent that does nothing to really help with tanking.

Why couldnt the protection tree get 41 point talent something like "Shield Block Mastery" - The tank is imbued with the power of the all mighty block gods and will block most attacks and all attacks blocked will generate 2 rage and wil be blocked at 150% of current value for the next 30 seconds- 5 minute cooldown.

Im not worried about our lack of love, perceived or real, but I am worried about the relative lack of balance in our class. It seems that very soon warrior dps may become obsolete ( depending on fury scaling ) and tanking most mobs will have stiff competition from Druids. We have gone from 'obscene roffle hope you have 10 warriors for naxx' to lets make sure every class does what the warrior does + their second ability unique to them. So I guess we'll see.

Despite calls for not making this thread one on personal game design or hybrids, it's still in every post. It's going to be very hard to talk about this topic and not have the thread end up in a debate about hybrid functionality. I think the whole mythos surrounding warrior DPS has just exploded in the Naxx era and made so many 'pure' DPS classes unhappy you just aren't going to be able to avoid it.

That or you are going to have to hound them after each and every post.


Anyway, as far as relevant contribution, since the patch only a few of our warriors have even touched PvP despite the obvious potential rewards. There is a pretty wide consensus that the nerf was pretty bad, but I'm not convinced this isn't just a mob mentality problem atm, rather than a dispassionate analysis of what they lost or gained.

And you do generate more rage than him. Just not as much more as you used to. Just like Mortal Strike used to hit for a lot more with a 3.6 speed weapon than a 3.0 speed weapon; now the differential, while still there, is smaller.

Let's try. Let's try hard.

Just because a thread might inspire in you a tangential thought doesn't mean that thought needs to be posted in said thread - especially when it's a tangent that has been talked to death already. Believe it or not, God doesn't kill a kitten each time a thread dies, having run its natural course and exhausted the potential of the topic. You're not doing anyone any favors by using every handy thread to segue into your personal soapbox speech about whatever the topic of the day in WoW General is. (This is the general 'you,' don't worry Amera.)

If you've got nothing to say, say nothing.

Warriors needed a damage nerf, certainly, but I think this was excessive.
I would have rather seen them lose their .8 threat multiplier, and then seen some fights where aggro was actually important. I think that would have been a far more effective way of limiting their raid dps, without destroying their ability to pvp or solo.

There is more to balance than how much damage a class does.

I honestly don't feel a difference in pvp with arms spec. I'm getting around 15 rage per hit or 30 per crit with zinrokh, which is about the same I used to get before the patch. That is WITHOUT endless rage(37/11/3). And I don't have bad gear, although since it's my alt it doesn't have the top end raiding gear, it is still better than what the majority of warriors have.
Sure, you're completely useless in 1v1 or without a healer/dispeller backing you up, but that has always been true. With proper backup and a team around you that knows what they're doing I'm still completely destroying the opposition.
The nerf I hate most? I can't use iron grenades any more :P

I guess that is because Blizz wanted to give Prot Warriors damage potential when they are not tanking or when they are soloing. Focused Rage, Vitality (both components) and Devastate all help Prot DPS *and* tanking. What else could a Prot Warrior want when his threat is fine to begin with? And if what Whiteknight said is true (~200 DPS from Devastate/DW), then yeah, that is big. Someone should do the math on Devastate and BT/MS.


OK, here is a hint for you: Don't label classes after what you think they are. Because if you do, then someone else could throw it right back at you and tell you that Warriors are a tanking class and don't deserve DPS. Or if you want to get a tanking buff, someone will say that Warriors are a DPS class.

In the end it doesn't matter what you think Warriors/class X is, it only matters what Blizzard wants the class to do. Heck, ignore even the crappy manual or the web site where the class roles are stated. They are either outdated or being changed regurlarily anyway.

Only thing you could say with certainty is that Warriors are hybrids - as are other classes that can fulfill more than one role (not necessarily at the same time). Now you can argue what part of the hybrid you want to see as dominant part etc - but someone said that we shouldn't go on the hybrid route so I won't. Just keep that in mind if you do want to take that route.

EDIT: And behold, it did happen as I say in the post just above this. :P

This thread is fucking stupid -- never do this again. Scroll through the thread. 90% of it is warriors whining and then other classes coming to a thread titled "fellow warriors" and telling warriors why they need to be nerfed. In the meantime, reasonable perspectives and posts like Muraevin's get lost in the noise.

Don't whine. I'm going to start handing out temp bans for whining. No one wants to read that. If you are seething with angst and rage as you sit down to write a post about your class in this MMO, stand up and walk away from the computer, or if you can't do that, click the little "WoW Forums" bookmark you doubtless have on your browser and vent there.