Warrior tanking mechanics - Page 2

Aloaya · 02/28/07, 2:22 PM

I don't know about this -- I haven't seen any increase in (reappearance of) crits, but what I have seen is more crushings than before, and less avoidance. Why?

More dynamic fights, so I'm not always facing dead-on. NORMALLY I am, but with some regularity while running in/out, dragging, circling, whatever a boss (or even some trash), I'll wind up with my side or back facing them long enough that my avoidance rate is suddenly their miss. That's enough that I'm seeing crushings again, but I don't think I've seen crits outside of Vorpil (for whom I wear a good chunk of DPS gear).

What it might also be is I have a little resilience, from gear I wear for other reasons -- If they're forcing us to wear resilience to avoid crits, well, I'm not exactly thrilled.

vorda · 03/01/07, 12:41 PM

Abit unrelated, but this topic got our warriors to screenshot alot more, this popped up last night on maiden:
http://www.archaicorder.com/forum/in...=7285.0;id=233
(the tank was very undergeared, but I think its safe to assume this is a bug?)

Uziel · 03/01/07, 12:47 PM

Vorda, we can't view your forums. Says the topic is offlimits.

Hoonboof · 03/01/07, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by vorda

Abit unrelated, but this topic got our warriors to screenshot alot more, this popped up last night on maiden:
http://www.archaicorder.com/forum/in...=7285.0;id=233
(the tank was very undergeared, but I think its safe to assume this is a bug?)

Umm, got another link?

An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.

vorda · 03/01/07, 3:15 PM

Oh, apologies.

http://users.pandora.be/oc/Hit12587.jpg

Vindicta · 03/01/07, 3:55 PM

Enrage?

vorda · 03/01/07, 4:27 PM

Happened before the first repentance.

(side note: MoV with 5 melees is not fun

)

Abbi · 03/01/07, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by Fizwidget

It would be nice to see if the new -350 atk power CoW is really making a dent in boss DPS output, or if the -AP cap makes it redundant to apply CoW + Demo Shout.

CoW and Demo don't stack, alas. However, from our testing, with and without CoW on two subsequent runs:

Ghostly Stewards:
Melee average hit declined from 2914 to 2118.
Drunken Skull Crack average hit declined from 2085 to 1408.

(Of course, losing tanks less often on the stewards means they got in fewer hits on cloth, possibly exaggerating the effect.)

Moroes:
Melee average hit declined from 2498 to 2088.

Spectral Servant:
Melee average hit decline from 1161 to 1021.

Phantom Valet:
Melee average hit declined from 4267 to 3789.

Baroness Dorothea Millstipe:
Melee average hit declined from 1741 to 1121.

Small sample size, etc., etc.

Mordinm · 03/01/07, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Grymm

The DWing demons you get after the ambassador but before the warlock boss get at least one crit on me almost all the time. It's easy for me to tell because I'm fury with enrage. They attack fairly light but swing a lot. I don't see enrage popping up from other mobs in the instance.

I thought they had already put in the mechanic that allowed enrages without being cirt. When you get an attack that would have crit but was changed to a hit due to defense or talents your enrage will activate. I don't know why would not see this other mobs though.

Uziel · 03/01/07, 5:06 PM

*Nevermind, I misunderstood.

Mordinm · 03/01/07, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by vorda

Happened before the first repentance.

(side note: MoV with 5 melees is not fun

)

I don't really know how your UI mod displays hits but was the huge hit a chained holy wrath. I can tell no difference in the log from the holy ground vs melee hits.

Whiteknight · 03/01/07, 5:18 PM

Yeah, that definitely looks like a chained wrath hit.

Take a careful look at the combat log - Hitsmode is reporting every incoming damage as "hits you" - including the consecrate effect she does.

If you open the normal combat log, you'll see damage type (holy) and the ability used.

Apate · 03/01/07, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Mordinm

I thought they had already put in the mechanic that allowed enrages without being cirt. When you get an attack that would have crit but was changed to a hit due to defense or talents your enrage will activate. I don't know why would not see this other mobs though.

I thought that only applied to resilience?

Any effect which benefits the victim of a critical strike will now trigger even if resilience converted the attack from a critical strike to a normal strike; this applies to melee, ranged, and spell. The affected talents, abilities, and items are: "Eye for an Eye", "Blessed Resilience", "Enrage", "Martyrdom", "Blood Craze", "Eye of the Storm", and "Bonespike Shoulder".

http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/75587610.htm

Take a careful look at the combat log - Hitsmode is reporting every incoming damage as "hits you" - including the consecrate effect she does.

If that is HitsMode, I think there's an option that covers this.

Mordinm · 03/01/07, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by Apate

I thought that only applied to resilience?

http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/75587610.htm

I was going from memory as my access to wow related information is servely limited at work. The wording does say resilience and while I wouldn't be surprised if talent/defense crit reductions work the same way and were left out of the patch notes I have no evidence either way.

Drukal · 03/02/07, 10:10 PM

Well, since Vorda is probaby in bed right now, I figured I'll toss this one out here on Khaz's behalf:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...207_221143.jpg

Melee crit from Romulo, at exactly 490 def.

vorda · 03/04/07, 1:13 PM

Anyone any idea? 490 def, melee crit. Romulo (and possibly alot more bosses then) have higher then average melee crit?

Athinira · 03/04/07, 4:12 PM

Originally Posted by vorda

Anyone any idea? 490 def, melee crit. Romulo (and possibly alot more bosses then) have higher then average melee crit?

My guess is that mobs above your level will always have a chance to crit you, no matter your defense skill.

This has been seculation for some time on most parts. I originally first saw it when a Naxx tank posted a screenshot of him getting critted by a Naxx boss with 442 defense (aka. 2 over the crit immunity cap, this was before TBC talents btw).

Given Darkmantles test with his priest, my guess is that because the mobs were under his level, they would be unable to crit him. Crits happen on tanks in raids no matter their defense, this is not the first example i have seen of it. If it applies to mobs over your level or to boss mobs only im not aware.

Just for info, i was in a 5 man onyxia in TBC beta on my level 70 druid at that time. We saw our tank getting crushing blows from Onyxia, something that should not be possible considering whe was "supposed" to not have scaled up in level from level 63. My guess is that bosses work in a special way, and they will always be able to crit you.

Emeraude · 03/04/07, 7:37 PM

Originally Posted by vorda

Anyone any idea? 490 def, melee crit. Romulo (and possibly alot more bosses then) have higher then average melee crit?

Some mobs don't follow the 5.6% crit rule. Especially Rogue type mobs.

Moroes does that as well I believe, also the Horde Barov in Tirisfal Glades easily used to crit through 440 def as well.

Athinira · 03/04/07, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Some mobs don't follow the 5.6% crit rule. Especially Rogue type mobs.

Moroes does that as well I believe, also the Horde Barov in Tirisfal Glades easily used to crit through 440 def as well.

Barov is special, he has upwards 20% critchance.

Mind Controlled feral druids with LotP have also been known to cause disturbances, especially when the boss gains 5% critchance and heals himself for 50k because of Improved Leader of the Pack :)

Muggins · 03/04/07, 7:54 PM

It would appear that a pattern of mobs that can dual wield are the ones being listed by people as having landed crits on them when they're supposedly crit immune. Prince, Romulo, Moroes, the spiteful demons from shadowlabs and so on.

Would it be too far fetched to think that when they modified them for dual wield mechanics they also slipped in (whether by design or accident) a slightly higher crit rate for those mobs?

Edit: May as well slip this in here while i'm at it.

Has anyone else noticed that actually landing blows against mobs through the storm of dodges and parries is considerably more difficult at 70 endgame than it ever was at 60? Or am i simply going mad?

Juno · 03/04/07, 8:25 PM

Might be 5.6% for each weapon, but I doubt it. I can't remember being crit for ages. Not in my entire time in Kara have I seen a crit on me, got a bit over 500 def. I'll run a combat log for only incoming hits and save it for Prince and other noteworthy bosses next time. But last night, Romulo definitely didn't crit me.

Barov also has like 99% parry, it's stupidly much

Juno · 03/05/07, 5:40 PM

From the logs of 2 prince tries I didn't get crit once. And even if it's 1%, I probably should've been crit at least once then. What is funny though is the amount of avoidance it feels like he has. Here's a parse from a section of the fight.

3546 3/5 21:15:40.977 Your Devastate is parried by Prince Malchezaar.
3577 3/5 21:15:42.008 Your Heroic Strike hits Prince Malchezaar for 309.
3614 3/5 21:15:43.305 Your Heroic Strike was dodged by Prince Malchezaar.
3617 3/5 21:15:43.492 Your Shield Slam is parried by Prince Malchezaar.
3639 3/5 21:15:44.289 Your Heroic Strike is parried by Prince Malchezaar.
3669 3/5 21:15:45.102 Your Devastate was dodged by Prince Malchezaar.
3691 3/5 21:15:45.867 Your Heroic Strike is parried by Prince Malchezaar.
3703 3/5 21:15:46.805 Your Devastate was dodged by Prince Malchezaar.
3708 3/5 21:15:47.117 Your Heroic Strike hits Prince Malchezaar for 309.
3756 3/5 21:15:48.539 Your Heroic Strike was dodged by Prince Malchezaar.

I got the entire incoming damage too but a bit too big to post.
This is hot to see while he's DW'ing though.

10160 3/5 21:33:31.539 Prince Malchezaar attacks. You dodge.
10178 3/5 21:33:31.945 Prince Malchezaar attacks. You dodge.
10199 3/5 21:33:33.024 Prince Malchezaar attacks. You parry.
10208 3/5 21:33:33.274 Prince Malchezaar hits you for 3070. (315 blocked)
10222 3/5 21:33:34.258 Prince Malchezaar attacks. You dodge.
10232 3/5 21:33:34.633 Prince Malchezaar attacks. You parry.
10252 3/5 21:33:35.445 Prince Malchezaar attacks. You dodge.
10253 3/5 21:33:35.445 Prince Malchezaar hits you for 1667. (315 blocked)
10280 3/5 21:33:36.477 Prince Malchezaar attacks. You dodge.
10286 3/5 21:33:36.867 Prince Malchezaar misses you.
10296 3/5 21:33:37.852 Prince Malchezaar misses you.
10303 3/5 21:33:38.258 Prince Malchezaar misses you.
10324 3/5 21:33:39.258 Prince Malchezaar misses you.
10326 3/5 21:33:39.461 Prince Malchezaar misses you.

Aaand it seems I got crushed 19 times during 2 fights. Always get about 2 on initial pull. And a few during the fight when shield block ain't ready yet.
And one thing that's highly annoying is Thrash attacks. Look at those timestamps, 15904 damage in 2 seconds.

3/5 21:16:38.227 Prince Malchezaar hits you for 3729. (313 blocked)
3/5 21:16:38.227 Prince Malchezaar gains 2 extra attacks through Thrash.
3/5 21:16:38.274 Prince Malchezaar hits you for 3335. (313 blocked)
3/5 21:16:38.274 Prince Malchezaar hits you for 3536. (313 blocked)
3/5 21:16:38.930 Prince Malchezaar attacks. You parry.
3/5 21:16:39.836 Prince Malchezaar hits you for 5304. (crushing)
3/5 21:16:40.367 You die.

Roana · 03/05/07, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Drukal

Well, since Vorda is probaby in bed right now, I figured I'll toss this one out here on Khaz's behalf:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j2...207_221143.jpg

Melee crit from Romulo, at exactly 490 def.

What is your defense rating?

For example, with 298 defense rating, I get my defense displayed as 495, while mathematically it's only about 494.17 (assuming Blizzard's 2.4 defense per 1 point of defense rating is really accurate).

Possibly a rounding error, in other words?

Apate · 03/05/07, 5:59 PM

My understanding of the 'absolute' crit chance is that if it exists, it is well below 1%.

Errhellno · 03/05/07, 7:20 PM

All you need to know...

490 Defense = you will never be crit by any mob

to clarify: You will not be immune to crushing blows if the total of your block/dodge/parry/missrate = 100%... You will only be completely immune to crushing blows if ONE of those exceeds 100% at any moment. To paint a picture imagine a tank had 25% block dodge parry and miss rate... It is possible and not even uncommon for a mobs melee attack to go around that 25% for each type of avoidance/mitigation and still land a crushing... The only time you're ever going to be completely immune to crushing realistically is while shield block is up, which is coincidentally why warriors are still the best tanks.. On demand CB immunity... The smartest thing you can do is choose when to shield block on some fights more carefully... On bosses that frenzy make sure you're shield block is off CD each time a frenzy goes up... If a mob has a nasty frontal DD spell ( shadow flame on firemaw and nef are perfect examples) make sure you shield block through it or while its casting... cause if you take that 5k burst AND get crushed you're dead... If you take that 5k and get melee hit for a predictable amount, it is much more manageable. Healers can handle a crushing blow or two, but not when coupled with instant attacks as well.

Next time you tank maulgar run a timer for arcing smash and shield block 1 second before arcing smash every time and i promise you unless your healers are asleep you wont die.