(another) DPS Spreadsheet - Page 3

Demi9OD · 03/29/07, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by TheOnly

Something seems wrong with the "next stat" section again, and perhaps valuation of crit.

I need to look more into it.

But for now, the valuation of crit in the section is 0.1 dps per crit rating and 0.56 dps per hit rating.

Adding 2% crit (about 44 rating worth) gives almost as much dps as 2% hit (only 25 rating or so). This means hit rating should be 1.8x as valuable per point, not 5x as valuable or more.

In the 1.07 spreadsheet, the calculated increase in dps matched the "next stat" section.

So there is either something wrong with that section or crit is affecting the damage of spells inappropriately -- it seems much better for dps now.

Seems identical to 1.07 as 7/43/11, 1dmg=.32cr. Must be something to do with an affliction talent?

edit: oh, I see what you mean. Adding 2% crit and 2% hit to Gear fields yields very close DPS results for me as well, far from the nextstat valuation of 1hr=4.5cr

Bolche · 03/29/07, 4:29 PM

First, to get 1% crit close to 1% hit, you have to use only spell that can crit (ie disabling all dot and spam SB/Incinerate/SP), have ruin, and to be as close as possible to the hit cap, and have has low crit as possible.
With this setting (0% crit, 15% hit, ruin, spamming I am getting :
+1% hit 5,62 dps (+1.02%)
+1% crit 5,51(+1%)

So this seems correct.

The difference between "the next stats" crit section and adding %crit is that TNS does not factor the increased ISB uptime caused by the hit rating whereas adding crit directly does.
Try to remove the ISB talent or with a fire spell, and you should get the expected numbers.

I need to improve this point, has it under-estimates the value of crit. But ISB uptime is a little complex.

Edit : I'm sure I have read a nice study of ISB wich factor number of lock & number of SP, somewhere in this forum, but I'm enable to find it...

Myonax · 03/29/07, 6:03 PM

The Hit vs Crit issue on a warlock is an interesting topic with the new talents and gear available. Here is some pre-tbc data:
http://www.pslam.demon.co.uk/warlock-shadow-bolt.html (taken from http://elitistjerks.com/showthread.php?t=8300).

I have no idea how to model that in TBC, especially since now people are beginning to understand how much more important it is to keep all your dots up and the author of that chart doesn’t seem to include casting of Dots. I tried to do the math myself but failed miserably. How does stacking of hit vs crit now work with warlocks? I would have to assume a Deep affliction lock would want to cap hit (even with improved shadow bolt) since they spend relatively less time casting shadow bolt due to the additional two dots.

Then on the other hand demonology/ruin with the new Fel Tactic 5% to Crit could easily get to a +25% crit rate and theoretically keep improved shadow bolt up 85% of the time, at that point is it worth them loosing there 20% shadow bolt damage charge to refresh Dots? Since DoTs no longer take advantage of shadow vulnerability I don't even know where to begin with the math.

So assuming Ruin/Imp Shadow bolt and 5/5 Devastation/Fel Tactics. Going for Max sustained DPS; assuming shadow vuln is up do you refresh dots?

cocidius · 03/29/07, 6:45 PM

Originally Posted by Myonax

So assuming Ruin/Imp Shadow bolt and 5/5 Devastation/Fel Tactics. Going for Max sustained DPS; assuming shadow vuln is up do you refresh dots?

Since they dont use the Shadow Vuln up i would assume that refreshing the dots then SBing would work best. Depends on the circumstance i guess.

◊ Kyth · 03/30/07, 3:46 AM

Originally Posted by Myonax

Since DoTs no longer take advantage of shadow vulnerability I don't even know where to begin with the math.

Do you mean "since dots no longer consume a charge of the ISB debuff" or do you mean "since dots no longer benefit from the ISB debuff"?

Myonax · 03/30/07, 11:21 AM

"since dots no longer benefit from the ISB debuff"

Deathwing · 03/30/07, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Myonax

"since dots no longer benefit from the ISB debuff"

Not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. I mean, it's pretty simple to see your shadow dots increase substantially after a shadow bolt crit.

olsweddy · 03/30/07, 3:45 PM

Please post your source re: DoTs no longer benefitting from ISB...or are you saying you seem to have experienced this yourself? This would be a signficant change.

TheOnly · 03/30/07, 4:58 PM

Dots absolutely get bonus when ISB is up there. Shadow priest + ISB + CoS has lead to every single one of my top dot ticks other than when damage multiplier effects are up (heroic mechnar bot boss for example).

As affliction, I make sure my dots are on and try not to use up the last ISB charge to keep it on as long as possible (There is usually life tapping / dark pact, or DoT refresh to do and there's no better time than with 1 charge left on ISB).

With ISB and without ruin in an affliction spec, 1% crit can be somewhat close to 1% hit due to ISB in overall dps. Knowing that the current version of "the next stat" doesn't factor in ISB is the key bit of info I was looking for.

Demi9OD · 03/30/07, 9:28 PM

Originally Posted by TheOnly

Dots absolutely get bonus when ISB is up there. Shadow priest + ISB + CoS has lead to every single one of my top dot ticks other than when damage multiplier effects are up (heroic mechnar bot boss for example).

As affliction, I make sure my dots are on and try not to use up the last ISB charge to keep it on as long as possible (There is usually life tapping / dark pact, or DoT refresh to do and there's no better time than with 1 charge left on ISB).

With ISB and without ruin in an affliction spec, 1% crit can be somewhat close to 1% hit due to ISB in overall dps. Knowing that the current version of "the next stat" doesn't factor in ISB is the key bit of info I was looking for.

This valuation of crit can also be skewed with more than one ISB Warlock in a raid. Depending on the model used, my ISB uptime is 43%-53%. How many warlocks with ISB in a raid with a similar crit rate and casting cycle to mine would it take to maintain near 100% uptime in ISB? At that point, whatever it is, it becomes less useful to add crit.

Thuze · 03/31/07, 11:23 AM

I found this spreadsheet incredibly helpful in creating an efficiency frontier for DPS.

I have two questions:

1. How does one model the value of penetration relative to hit, crit, and damage. Has anyone made models to reflect this. I have been saving penetration gear on the assumption that it will be important for some fights (and the Mana-etched set appears to imply this), but I don't have any quantitative basis for evaluating penetration.

2. How do forum readers weight the value of stamina, intelligence, and spell damage. I find, despite the game's discount of stamina relative to intelligence, stamina is slightly better on a point for point basis (and thus cheap in game costs) and I rate a point of spell damage at nearly double the value of a point of stamina. Curious how others do this. My question is in a PVE raid context.

Thuze

doogless · 03/31/07, 5:12 PM

I'm unaware of any fights, other than a couple odd trash mobs, where spell penetration is useful (assuming CoS/CoE will always be up).

spell damage >>>>>>>>>>>> stam > int. the only time you need more stam is if you're dying from AoE damage, and the only time you need int is... almost never, really.

Bolche · 04/01/07, 7:04 AM

Originally Posted by Thuze

2. How do forum readers weight the value of stamina, intelligence, and spell damage. I find, despite the game's discount of stamina relative to intelligence, stamina is slightly better on a point for point basis (and thus cheap in game costs) and I rate a point of spell damage at nearly double the value of a point of stamina. Curious how others do this. My question is in a PVE raid context.

When I choose an item, I almost only look at dps stats (+dmg/hit/crit). Then I prefer int. to stam, because int. increase the time I can chain cast without LT/DP. Int. also increase my imp mana. Stamina does not increase dps.
I of course have a stamina gear that I can wear for AOE heave fights

BTW, a small update :
1.09 :
Change the way Impoved Shadow Bolt models work together with "the next stat"/crit section : If you select Model 1 or Model 2, the ISB uptime increase will be factored in the +1 crit rating. If you use a custom value, it won't.

◊ Kyth · 04/01/07, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Thuze

2. How do forum readers weight the value of stamina, intelligence, and spell damage. I find, despite the game's discount of stamina relative to intelligence, stamina is slightly better on a point for point basis (and thus cheap in game costs) and I rate a point of spell damage at nearly double the value of a point of stamina. Curious how others do this. My question is in a PVE raid context.

I pretty much also only look at damage. Failing that though, I prefer stamina because the fights I care most about (boss fights), I'm going to be lifetapping *anyways*, no amount of int will save me; and as soon as I use up my mana pool, my int becomes irrelevent. Stamina on the other hand always bears some relevance, be it AE, or being able to lifetap longer without heals, or a safety cushion when I'm lifetapping versus a mage who isn't.

That said I won't often give up damage to gain a bit of stamina. Stats are, in general, not useful to me.

◊ Vain · 04/01/07, 7:26 PM

Very nice spreadsheet, thanks!

Have you considered adding the ability to consider the Felguard in dps and gear comparisons and calculations? While he may not be raid friendly, he is a strong dps source in 5 man content (heroic or not).

I have almost exactly 1100 shadow damage when wearing my pve gear, and he seems to pretty consistently be responsible for about 28%-35% of my overall damage in 5 mans, heroic or not, so being able to add that as a consideration would be a nice addition. There are various variables that could be considered, such as frenzy, whether cleave hits one or two targets, any shaman totems, bloodlust, blessing of might, warrior shouts, etc.

Demi9OD · 04/02/07, 4:15 AM

Originally Posted by Vain

Very nice spreadsheet, thanks!

Have you considered adding the ability to consider the Felguard in dps and gear comparisons and calculations? While he may not be raid friendly, he is a strong dps source in 5 man content (heroic or not).

I have almost exactly 1100 shadow damage when wearing my pve gear, and he seems to pretty consistently be responsible for about 28%-35% of my overall damage in 5 mans, heroic or not, so being able to add that as a consideration would be a nice addition. There are various variables that could be considered, such as frenzy, whether cleave hits one or two targets, any shaman totems, bloodlust, blessing of might, warrior shouts, etc.

He's not all that raid unfriendly either. Being in a shadow priest group for VE, coupled with his passive avoidance, is usually enough to keep him up through most encounters.

Zyrexana · 04/03/07, 8:34 AM

First of all, I'd like to thank you for making such a thoughtful spreadsheet, and I'm glad you continue to improve and expand upon it.

I have a few thoughts and requests.

As a primarily raid PvE destruction warlock, sustainability is a big concern of mine, as well as how maintaining it affects my dps. So I was wondering about using something such as Drain Life in conjunction with Life Tap, and using your spreadsheet to give me a better idea of the relative mana consumption and dps alterations versus other basic alternatives.

After all, the most efficient use of my time would most likely be popping a pot, however, for most raid encounters I would much rather save the cooldown for dangerous moments (after all, I do 0 dps with my face in the dirt).

What I would love would be if you added into your spreadsheet the option of using Drain Life, and even Death Coil, with an option, like you've given for instance Life Tap, of selecting cast frequency, without making it necessarily your 'filler spell'.

From that, it would certainly help me and perhaps other warlocks examine the difference in their options of maintaining themselves and staying alive while not sacrificing their dps.

cocidius · 04/03/07, 2:19 PM

I posted this reply on page 2 and never got an answer.

Originally Posted by TheOnly

All of which, are testable in the spreadsheet.

From the spreadsheet:

900 shadow, 760 fire, 10% crit, 6% hit from gear (my current situation).

45/5/11 -- no imp CoA, no malediction, all other damage boosting affliction talents (4/5 suppression). Not counting life taps or pacts (so ~50 seconds dps).

DPS on a level 73 target.

Full DoT Cycle with CoA, no curses or shadow priests or fire mages = 841 dps on the spreadsheet.

This is assuming a 1.5 second DoT gap between refreshes on average due to non-perfect overlap, resists, and such.

+1 hit rating would give me 0.59 more dps.
+1 damage would give me 0.50 more dps.
1 more point suppresion gives me 7 dps. (0.83%)
2% more hit gives me 15 dps. (1.78%)
1 point devastation for 1% more crit gives 4 dps (0.48%)
CoD instead of CoA is 20 dps (2.37%)

% to hit increases dps a lot mostly because of fewer resists on shadow bolts and immolate, as the difference beetween suppression's 2% to hit on affliction and the 2% to hit from gear indicates.

Furthermore, an extra 2% crit is only 9 more dps. (1.07%)

Switching to 40/0/21 lowers dps to 825. (loss of 1.9%)

Switching to 41/0/20 increases it by 7 dps (+0.83%) (gain 5 crit from devastation, drop to 2/4 suppression and lose imp life tap -- if suppression is 1/5 or less, I lose dps but gain intensity and destructive reach)

What about the "dot gap" caused by not refreshing optimally?

If we are REALLY good and average 0.5 seconds per gap (essentially impossible), we gain 14 dps (1.66%).

If we are having a harder time with DoT refreshing and they average 2.5 seconds of 'gap' when they are not up, we lose 12.5 dps (1.48%).

If I am too focused on pew-pew shadowbolt action and the average time a DoT is not on the target climbs to 4 seconds, we drop to 811.6 dps, a loss of 29.5 ( 3.5% ).

To gain that 3.5% dps back from being lazy or inattentive, I need 67 more spell damage. Or an arcane elixir (cheapo) and adepts.

If my cast time lag gap is increased by 0.1 second, 26 dps is lost (3.1%)

Assuming a level 72 target, suppression and % to hit is already useless for me.
For a 73, hit rating is on par with +damage. About 60% of the % to hit worth is due to shadow bolts, and 40% of the worth is due to Dots.

Thus, if suppression gets you max hit for DoTs, hit rating becomes 60% as valuable as +damage.

Improved Shadow Bolt is responsible for 35 dps ( 4.16%).
Bane is responsible for 67 dps (7.96%)
If i went full devastation 5/5 for 5% more crit, it would be worth 23 dps (2.7 %), including the additional improved shadow bolt debuff uptime.

A few more notes:

* Shadow Bolts are roughly 60% of the cast time, and account for 39% of the damage ( 47%more if using CoS over CoA)

Using CoS over CoA loses 12.5 dps (-1.48%) but if I had Malediction, it would GAIN 7 dps (0.83%).

A CoS cycle gains slightly more from % to hit, and scales slightly better with + damage. With 0 suppression and 16% hit from gear, at 1500 shadow damage, a CoS cycle is more dps without malectiction or imp CoA, but imp CoA slightly overtakes it. CoD is of course better than both (slightly).

Back to my spec and stats...
Getting the improved CoA talent would gain 11 dps (+1.3%).
Since I play so often with a shadow priest around and thus use CoS, Malediction over Suppression is probably a good idea for me. Alternatively, full 5/5 shadow embrace isn't a bad idea since I know where to find those 4 points now (suppression).

All heroic bosses are level 72 anyway, only Kara + are there 73's to worry about.

So, in summary, Suppression and Devastation are BOTH pretty lame DPS boosters for affliction. % to hit gear is pretty good, primarily due to its effect on shadowbolt, and secondarily on its reduced DoT maintenance time. However it gets capped on non-bosses quickly.

% crit is pretty worthless compared to + damage or +hit per rating point. This is especially true because of the poor crit rating to crit chance ratio.

Ironically, the "profitability" of +damage and hit rating (value per point adjusted for item cost) is identical for affliction if %hit is not capped for both affliction and destruction spells.

If Affliction is capped due to suppression, but Destruction isn't the profitability is cut in half.

Shadow damage is 90% as good as +damage. It is slightly more profitable, item stat wise.

Lastly, delay between casts due to lag and timing have a much larger effect than "dot gap time". Spamming spells without delay is thus a much higher priority than getting the rotation 'just right'

0.1 seconds of spell cast delay causes as much dps loss as 2 seconds of 'dot gap'

Are you saying that supression is almost useless and spell hit is better? Not arguing with you but im currently trying to work on my build to make it a pure DPS affliction build. I had 5/5 supression but after reading this im considering taking a few if not all of the points out of it.

This is what i am now.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=IAMrVMftVt0oZxx0pM

This is what i was looking at switching to.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=AEMriRfzVt0oZxx0pM

any comments? yea i know the 5/5 in fel con. isnt really pve but its too nice for farming to give up.

Demi9OD · 04/08/07, 5:36 AM

From just looking at the numbers available to us, Incinerate seems to be an almost worthless spell. Plugging in equal fire and shadow damage for a 0/21/40 build, sacing a succubus and throwing shadowbolts seems to be much higher damage than sacing and imp and throwing incinerates.

There has got to be something missing. In the Forte vs Fathom-Lord video, Eoy, with both Voideheart and Nexus procced, should be hitting around 1586 fire damage. According to the spreadsheet, that should yield an average 3142 incinerate, and that is assuming full scorch debuff and maledicted CoE. Multiple times during the video his Incinerate is landing for as much as 3700 non crit with both procs up. I just don't understand what I am missing or whats wrong with Incinerate, anyone care to enlighten?

Boevis · 04/08/07, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

From just looking at the numbers available to us, Incinerate seems to be an almost worthless spell. Plugging in equal fire and shadow damage for a 0/21/40 build, sacing a succubus and throwing shadowbolts seems to be much higher damage than sacing and imp and throwing incinerates.

There has got to be something missing. In the Forte vs Fathom-Lord video, Eoy, with both Voideheart and Nexus procced, should be hitting around 1586 fire damage. According to the spreadsheet, that should yield an average 3142 incinerate, and that is assuming full scorch debuff and maledicted CoE. Multiple times during the video his Incinerate is landing for as much as 3700 non crit with both procs up. I just don't understand what I am missing or whats wrong with Incinerate, anyone care to enlighten?

I'd guess it's the presence of Shadow Priests.

Sacced Imp, Scorch, CoE, and Misery = 57% more fire damage
Sacced Suc, Shadowbolt, CoS, Misery, Shadow Weaving = 88% more shadow damage

I think that sums it up ... of course, then there's the question between Sac+Shadow and Flame and UA+Bane ... but that's a different discussion.

Without a Shadow Priest, and all Fire mages Incinerate is definitely the better of the 2 with a Demonology/Destruction build.

Demi9OD · 04/08/07, 1:53 PM

Like I said, technically, shadow bolt makes more sense, considering full raid debuffs and the spell coeffecient. You did forget emberstorm though. But Incinerate is clearly not working under implied mechanics in that video, Eoy is literally hitting for 500 more than he should be at times, which clearly tilts the favor back to fire. I am just trying to figure out what is wrong with Incinerate, and why it is doing more damage than it should be.

Zoner · 04/09/07, 3:32 AM

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

Like I said, technically, shadow bolt makes more sense, considering full raid debuffs and the spell coeffecient. You did forget emberstorm though. But Incinerate is clearly not working under implied mechanics in that video, Eoy is literally hitting for 500 more than he should be at times, which clearly tilts the favor back to fire. I am just trying to figure out what is wrong with Incinerate, and why it is doing more damage than it should be.

If this is true, perhaps some of the damage bonuses are being applied twice (or some other sillyness) when blizzard calculates whether or not you have an immolate up on the target for the bonus immolate damage. I'm thinking of the old double buffed ignites on Thaddius when I type this in . . . Or maybe multiple immolate bonuses with multiple warlocks? heh

Deathwing · 04/09/07, 8:52 AM

Originally Posted by Demi9OD

From just looking at the numbers available to us, Incinerate seems to be an almost worthless spell. Plugging in equal fire and shadow damage for a 0/21/40 build, sacing a succubus and throwing shadowbolts seems to be much higher damage than sacing and imp and throwing incinerates.

There has got to be something missing. In the Forte vs Fathom-Lord video, Eoy, with both Voideheart and Nexus procced, should be hitting around 1586 fire damage. According to the spreadsheet, that should yield an average 3142 incinerate, and that is assuming full scorch debuff and maledicted CoE. Multiple times during the video his Incinerate is landing for as much as 3700 non crit with both procs up. I just don't understand what I am missing or whats wrong with Incinerate, anyone care to enlighten?

I haven't looked at the video, so I'll run the numbers when I have more free time. But, redo your numbers with lifetap included so that it's a net loss of 0 mps(i.e. sustained damage). On my spreadsheet, shadow comes out a ~2% higher.

Another thing to consider, a lot of guilds still don't have shadow priests, which is something I annoy my guild leader about daily. When most of all of your mages are frost or fire, and you have no other shadow dps besides the other warlocks, incinerate makes a bit more sense, especially when you're the only warlock on kara runs.

If we had reliable shadow priests, I would definitely go shadow.