+ weapon skill? - Page 3

zork · 06/05/07, 10:47 AM

what happened with patch 2.1.0 is:

Glancing Blows have significantly less of a chance to occur during a player's melee attacks when targets are near the player's level.

so glancings will occur less often now.

ok back to weapon skill, i really want to know this, cause parry is a problem right now.

items with weapon skill:
http://www.wowhead.com/?search=Increased+1H#000

so seems we have to gather 10 weaponskill and do a test. well easiest way to do so is get a human and let him spec the 4 weapon skill. he should have 359 sword skill rating then...so latros sword would be enough. anyone got a human warrior (damn dwarf...!

)

Sunchips · 06/05/07, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

I'm pretty sure the blue post is incorrect in that 4 weapon skill would not grant 2.4% parry reduction.

One thing that's odd is that as it stands, it grants the most benefit for a tank. Melee dps aren't as concerned about parry reduction (or block for that matter) since they attack from behind whenever possible.

This certainly IS the case...if you haven't noticed there are BC tanking gears with +skill on them...

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30058

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32280

theres also a thread already on these forums about this topic with quite a bit more information about +skills benefits to tanking

Pater · 06/05/07, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sarutobi

Weapon skill no longer has any effect on glancing blows. This was removed in 2.0.1.

Yeah, I know this. I was wondering whether you have any evidence of a change from that post-2.1. In the shaman thread, we've seen some Gruul parses where rogue glance rates seemed significantly lower than shaman glance rates, but we were unsure if this was just random or some result of weapon skill. So far, I believe, the consensus is that post-2.1, base glance rate is 25%, with 25% mitigation. I'm not sure if anyone's got more detail than that.

Sarutobi · 06/05/07, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Sunchips

This certainly IS the case...if you haven't noticed there are BC tanking gears with +skill on them...

Whether or not weapon skill affects parry is not what's in question here. The question is to what degree. And from what has already been proven, through testing, to be inaccurate from the blue post on the EU forums, it's reasonable to assume that the parry numbers may be off as well.

Sarutobi · 06/05/07, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Pater

Yeah, I know this. I was wondering whether you have any evidence of a change from that post-2.1. In the shaman thread, we've seen some Gruul parses where rogue glance rates seemed significantly lower than shaman glance rates, but we were unsure if this was just random or some result of weapon skill. So far, I believe, the consensus is that post-2.1, base glance rate is 25%, with 25% mitigation. I'm not sure if anyone's got more detail than that.

From the limited number of parses I've seen, the frequency of glancing blows has been fairly consistent when comparing rogues who have weapon expertise/mace spec in their build to those without it.

Apate · 06/05/07, 11:49 AM

I don't think this thread has been linked here yet. I'll leave it here in case someone comes along searching.

XP-Dolphin and Theras did some testing: [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion

laforce · 06/05/07, 12:53 PM

I did some massive testing the last week, and I can for sure say that:

+1 weapon skill = +0,1% chance to hit and weapon skill does not reduce glancing damage or glancing at all.

According to blizzard's patch notes, you will get +0.1% crit (plus what's stated on your sheet) against mobs higher level than you are.. so you will benefit from +0,14% crit per skill point against higher level targets (71,72,73, bosses)

Also, I found out that your chance to miss is defined by the following formula, and is increased by the difference between your weapon skill and the mob defense skill:

Miss chance = 24% + (Mob defense skill - Your weapon skill)*0,1

Let's assume you're fighting a level 73 mob and you have no +weapon skill, then the equation would be:

Miss chance = 24% + (365 - 350)*0,1 = 25,5% chance to miss, that would need a +403 hit if you want to avoid misses completely. For a rogue with 5/5 Precision (+5% hit), it would be needed a +324 hit stat to become miss-free. But if you have weapon expertise, things change a little, since Weapon expertise gives you 10 skill:

Miss change (w/ wEx.) = 24% + (365 - 360)*0,1 = 24,5%.. then if you have Precision (+5% hit), you would 'only' need +308,1 hit (19,5%) to become miss-free

My tests verify the above information, yesterday I ran 5 tries of Lady Vash and 1 of Magtheridon with +307 hit, Precision (+5%hit) and wEx. (+10skill).. bringing me up to +25,43% chance to hit (the cap is 25,50% for bosses, as we calculated above). Guess what? I only missed 1 hit (ONE, yes).. that was due to my +0,07% chance to miss.. ;(

WWS report of Lady Vash tries (Laforce=me, the other 2 rogues have around 230-280 hit):
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=dr6t3f1qorwnc

I've done it before with +309hit and did not miss a single hit in 4-5 hours of raiding. So, conclusions:

- Base chance to miss against level 73 mobs: 25,5%
- w/ wEx: 24,5%
- w/ wEx and Precision 5/5: 19,5%
- +hit needed for 19,5% = 19,5 x 15,8 = +308,1 hit
- +hit doesnt change Glancing in ANY way.

EDIT:
I have no clue how +skill affects CRIT, blizzard states it increases your crit rate by 0,1% for each point against mobs above your level.. who knows! I havent tested how +skill affects parries/blocks either.. it would take an immense amount of data to accomplish 100% correct conclusions

Blizzard notes:
* Weapon skill will no longer reduce the percentage damage lost due to glancing. <- Correct!
* The player will gain 0.1% to their critical strike rating per weapon skill against monsters above their level. <- God knows if this is true.

I hope it helped

zork · 06/05/07, 5:49 PM

hi laforce, very good post.

what do you think: is what you found for hit is guessable for parry? thus 5+(365-350)*0.1=6.5% parry ... hmm

warriors only have this deep arms talent with 4 weapon skill, would that be sth like 5+(365-354)*0.1=6.1% then?

what we seem to know from defense is:
"Each point of +Defense skill adds 0.04% to the chance to be Missed, to Parry, to Dodge, and to Block for players. Mobs receive 0.1% per point of defense."
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas

efense

so it seems logical that weapon skill is just the opposite from that. so 1 weapon skill should be 0.1% to hit, 0.1% to not get parried, 0.1% to not get dodged and 0.1% to not get blocked. (for mobs)

what do you think?

Emeraude · 06/05/07, 5:59 PM

Originally Posted by zork

hi laforce, very good post.

what do you think: is what you found for hit is guessable for parry? thus 5+(365-350)*0.1=6.5% parry ... hmm

warriors only have this deep arms talent with 4 weapon skill, would that be sth like 5+(365-354)*0.1=6.1% then?

what we seem to know from defense is:
"Each point of +Defense skill adds 0.04% to the chance to be Missed, to Parry, to Dodge, and to Block for players. Mobs receive 0.1% per point of defense."
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas

efense

so it seems logical that weapon skill is just the opposite from that. so 1 weapon skill should be 0.1% to hit, 0.1% to not get parried, 0.1% to not get dodged and 0.1% to not get blocked. (for mobs)

what do you think?

I think WoWWiki is a horrible place to use as a reference in general and we should start with fresh data and no assumptions other then what we know for facts.

Err this prob came off a little harsher then intended, no ill will intended.

Originally Posted by laforce

Miss chance = 24% + (Mob defense skill - Your weapon skill)*0,1

Let's assume you're fighting a level 73 mob and you have no +weapon skill, then the equation would be:

Miss chance = 24% + (365 - 350)*0,1

That doesn't quite work out with 2-handers, though I realize the math could be different, and this could be right with DW only.

• Aldriana · 06/05/07, 6:40 PM

According to blizzard's patch notes, you will get +0.1% crit (plus what's stated on your sheet) against mobs higher level than you are.. so you will benefit from +0,14% crit per skill point against higher level targets (71,72,73, bosses)

The patch notes do say that. However, if you look at the data set in the thread that Apate linked above, the increased crit chance was not observed to be present; the difference in crit rate between the two paladins testing was consistant with the actual benefit of crit being between .03% and .09% per point of +skill, well below the conjectured +.14%. So something else is going on.

It should also be noted that that data set observed *no* reduction to boss parry rate whatsoever, but did reduce dodge chance by more than .04% per skill.

The best theory I've been able to come up with to explain the observed data is found in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet thread (Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, post 162. A brief summary of the theory:

The base miss rate for dual-wield is 24%, increased by .5% per level of the mob.
Weapon skill reduces this by .1% per point.

The base miss rate for single-wield is 5%, increased by 1% per level of the mob. Weapon skill reduces this by .2% per point.

The totally-untested-corolary of this would be:

Perhaps weapon skill gives .04% crit and -.04% dodge for dual-wield, and twice that for single-wield?

zork · 06/06/07, 2:22 AM

that is interesting. you say that mobs increase miss rate for DW and 2Handers seperately.

for dw and lvl 73: 24+1.5=25.5
for 2hand and lvl 73: 5+3=8

are you serious? how could the mob have a higher miss chance against another type off weapon, this does not make any sense. or does it?

2hand and 1hand should have a miss rate of 6.5 normally. hmmm...

• Aldriana · 06/06/07, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by zork

that is interesting. you say that mobs increase miss rate for DW and 2Handers seperately.

for dw and lvl 73: 24+1.5=25.5
for 2hand and lvl 73: 5+3=8

are you serious? how could the mob have a higher miss chance against another type off weapon, this does not make any sense. or does it?

2hand and 1hand should have a miss rate of 6.5 normally. hmmm...

Except that testing indicates it's not. I dunno, there's a certain logic in having people who use two weapons split the benefits/penalties between the two weapons. But, again, it's just a theory at this point - it's never really been tested.

roq · 06/06/07, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by laforce

I did some massive testing the last week, and I can for sure say that:

+1 weapon skill = +0,1% chance to hit and weapon skill does not reduce glancing damage or glancing at all.

According to blizzard's patch notes, you will get +0.1% crit (plus what's stated on your sheet) against mobs higher level than you are.. so you will benefit from +0,14% crit per skill point against higher level targets (71,72,73, bosses)

Also, I found out that your chance to miss is defined by the following formula, and is increased by the difference between your weapon skill and the mob defense skill:

Miss chance = 24% + (Mob defense skill - Your weapon skill)*0,1

Let's assume you're fighting a level 73 mob and you have no +weapon skill, then the equation would be:

Miss chance = 24% + (365 - 350)*0,1 = 25,5% chance to miss, that would need a +403 hit if you want to avoid misses completely. For a rogue with 5/5 Precision (+5% hit), it would be needed a +324 hit stat to become miss-free. But if you have weapon expertise, things change a little, since Weapon expertise gives you 10 skill:

Miss change (w/ wEx.) = 24% + (365 - 360)*0,1 = 24,5%.. then if you have Precision (+5% hit), you would 'only' need +308,1 hit (19,5%) to become miss-free

My tests verify the above information, yesterday I ran 5 tries of Lady Vash and 1 of Magtheridon with +307 hit, Precision (+5%hit) and wEx. (+10skill).. bringing me up to +25,43% chance to hit (the cap is 25,50% for bosses, as we calculated above). Guess what? I only missed 1 hit (ONE, yes).. that was due to my +0,07% chance to miss.. ;(

WWS report of Lady Vash tries (Laforce=me, the other 2 rogues have around 230-280 hit):
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=dr6t3f1qorwnc

I've done it before with +309hit and did not miss a single hit in 4-5 hours of raiding. So, conclusions:

- Base chance to miss against level 73 mobs: 25,5%
- w/ wEx: 24,5%
- w/ wEx and Precision 5/5: 19,5%
- +hit needed for 19,5% = 19,5 x 15,8 = +308,1 hit
- +hit doesnt change Glancing in ANY way.

Blizzard notes also verify what was experienced:
* Weapon skill will no longer reduce the percentage damage lost due to glancing.
* The player will gain 0.1% to their critical strike rating per weapon skill against monsters above their level.

I hope it helped

A suggestion, use 15.77 when doing your hit calulations instead of 15.8. 15.77 is closer to the actual number blizzard uses and actually brings your numbers down a little.

laforce · 06/06/07, 1:38 PM

Originally Posted by zork

hi laforce, very good post.

what do you think: is what you found for hit is guessable for parry? thus 5+(365-350)*0.1=6.5% parry ... hmm

warriors only have this deep arms talent with 4 weapon skill, would that be sth like 5+(365-354)*0.1=6.1% then?

what we seem to know from defense is:
"Each point of +Defense skill adds 0.04% to the chance to be Missed, to Parry, to Dodge, and to Block for players. Mobs receive 0.1% per point of defense."
http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas

efense

so it seems logical that weapon skill is just the opposite from that. so 1 weapon skill should be 0.1% to hit, 0.1% to not get parried, 0.1% to not get dodged and 0.1% to not get blocked. (for mobs)

what do you think?

Too bad I could only draw conclusions regardint how +skill affects hit/misses

In order to test how it affects parries/blocks/crit, it would be insanely hard.. :/

laforce · 06/06/07, 2:02 PM

@Emeraude,

Yes, my formula is for dual-wielders only

Sorry if I forgot to mention that.

@Aldriana,

I didn't test how +skill affects crits/parry/block/dodge, I just commented what blizzard's patch notes state about +crit on higher lvl mobs. It would take an enormous amount of data to draw any conclusion on that..

I think I'll do some auto-attack testing on bosses sometime.. hehe, I'll check the paladins thread now, havent seen it yet.

@rok,

Will use 15.77 on next tests, wasnt aware of that, I thought it was 15.80

Thanks!