[Shaman] Itemizing Enhancement at 70 - Page 11

Ashiya · 04/21/07, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Igniter

Now, I suggest you download the windfury dot mod off curse. It will correctly show when to SS, as the dot turns green when the WF cooldown is up and ready to go.

Which mod is this?

http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/downl...823/wfwatcher/

That?

Pater · 04/21/07, 10:40 AM

While it's true that WF's chance to hit, once proc'd, caps out at very low levels of hit, it only gets that chance to proc once you've successfully landed a white DW hit. So I believe hit and crit are just as important to WF dmg as they are in white dmg.

The effect of hit (up to cap) and crit scale with AP, but AP does not scale with hit and crit. I believe that at low levels of AP, str/AP are the more efficient stat to focus on, but once you're (very roughly) in the 2000 AP range, hit and crit are the most efficient.

panny · 04/21/07, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Also, regarding the hit vs. crit vs. attack power replies; I think a lot of people forget that Stormstrike and Windfury Weapon procs cap out at a much lower level of hit % than our normal melee attacks do. I don't know about you guys, by my Windfury procs and Stormstrike attacks account for a very large chunk of my total damage. About 50% to be exact. Now, you can recite the "you can't proc windfury or crit if you don't hit" mantra, or you can actually run the math for yourself based on your own stats. I have, and that is how I rank these stats based on my results. Interestingly enough, I believe this is how Blizzard's itemization formula ranks them aswell.

It's also possible that I suck at math. I'd love to be made aware of that if that happens to be the case!

Having 50% of your damage come from WF and SS is rather strange, I get 40% at the most. But you can't really use that as a justification for AP over +hit since the make up of your damage is going to be dependant on how much AP/+hit you have in the first place.

Originally Posted by Pater

The effect of hit (up to cap) and crit scale with AP, but AP does not scale with hit and crit. I believe that at low levels of AP, str/AP are the more efficient stat to focus on, but once you're (very roughly) in the 2000 AP range, hit and crit are the most efficient.

AP definitely scales with hit/crit. You can't have crit/hit scale with AP but not the other way around.

Ashiya · 04/21/07, 1:22 PM

I just picked up Totem of the Astral Winds. Its stats look better than the Stormfury Totem, but does anyone have any mats on how much it actually increases my DPS? Thanks.

Malan · 04/21/07, 1:32 PM

Originally Posted by Ashiya

I just picked up Totem of the Astral Winds. Its stats look better than the Stormfury Totem, but does anyone have any mats on how much it actually increases my DPS? Thanks.

Since the DPS computations for Windfury are nearly impossible to compute accurately (See the Windfury Changes and You thread for a huge run-down on this) thanks to Blizzards silly implementation of the enchant, its going to be pretty hard to figure out how much DPS this would actually add. However, since the Stormfury totem isn't actually granting you any real DPS (think about how many Stormstrikes you need to do in order for that totem to save you enough mana to do another Earthshock/Flameshock or Stormstrike) you can bet on the Astral Winds being a noticeable upgrade.

Malan · 04/21/07, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by panny

AP definitely scales with hit/crit. You can't have crit/hit scale with AP but not the other way around.

Uhh... yes you can. Think about what you're saying here - you're suggesting that increasing your hit/crit makes your AP scale (increase). It doesn't. That would be like saying that your AP scales your Strength - that by increasing AP your strength would benefit. But the other way around, saying that Strength scales your AP is a true statement. As you increase Strength your AP scales upward. As AP goes up, your hits and crits do more damage, thus they scale with AP. Increase your hit/crit and keep your AP constant and the AP doesn't receive any benefit from hit/crit.

Hellcry · 04/21/07, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Also, regarding the hit vs. crit vs. attack power replies; I think a lot of people forget that Stormstrike and Windfury Weapon procs cap out at a much lower level of hit % than our normal melee attacks do. I don't know about you guys, by my Windfury procs and Stormstrike attacks account for a very large chunk of my total damage. About 50% to be exact. Now, you can recite the "you can't proc windfury or crit if you don't hit" mantra, or you can actually run the math for yourself based on your own stats. I have, and that is how I rank these stats based on my results. Interestingly enough, I believe this is how Blizzard's itemization formula ranks them aswell.

It's also possible that I suck at math. I'd love to be made aware of that if that happens to be the case!

It is possible that you did the math for an unbuffed scenario. When I value gear I always assume All pots/flasks and the buffs I usually have when i raid.

As I said earlier gearing for max dmg solo is not at all the same as gearing for max dmg in raids.

sabashra · 04/21/07, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

It's also possible that I suck at math. I'd love to be made aware of that if that happens to be the case!

I've put together an enhancement shaman spreadsheet that I find yields pretty accurate results (compared to actual WWS parses).

Scenario 1: 1589 AP, 27.7% crit (206 rating), 92.2% hit (155 rating). This is self buffed with SoE, GoA and using Windfury Weapon. Gear is a combination of blues and epics with a fair mix of leather. AP equivalences per next stat are as follows: STR = 2.0, AGI = 1.6, Hit rating = 1.2, Crit rating = 1.8. So 1 STR > 1 Hit rating or 1 Crit rating.

Scenario 2: 2360 AP, 33.9% crit, 92.2% hit. This is raid buffed with LotP, Battleshout, BoM, Bok and Improved Hunter's Mark. AP equivalences per next stat are as follows: STR = 2.0, AGI = 1.6, Hit rating = 1.5, Crit rating = 1.8. The numbers fluctuate depending on which buffs are turned on or off but the overall relationships hold. Hit rating becomes more important.

Secnario 3: 2900 AP or more due to flask, fel strength elixir and other buff stacking. AP equivalences per next stat are as follows: STR = 2.0, AGI = 1.8, Hit rating = 1.8, Crit rating = 2.1. Only at this juncture does crit rating become more valuable than STR on a point for point basis. However, since stacking consumables to this extent will not be possible post-2.1, AP will never be buffed high enough for crit rating value to be > 2.

So the point is that you don't suck at math. Crit and hit rating while worthwhile are not as valuable as strength or pure attack power increases at the right point values.

Igniter · 04/21/07, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Average damage of Flame Shock after accounting for Curse of Elements, Fire Vulnerability, Misery and crit(based off of 12% spell crit chance) - 1065.5

Average damage of Earth Shock after accounting for Stormstrike, Misery and crit(based off of 12% spell crit chance) - 898.9

Obviously Flame Shock takes 12 seconds to work its magic, which is why you rotate between it and Earth Shock. If it didn't take 12 seconds you would simply cast Flame Shock every time. The benefits of Flame Shock over Earth Shock are even more apparant if you're raiding with an elemental shaman, since they can put that Stormstrike debuff to much better use than you can.

Anyway, I'm not sure how you're coming to the conclusion that Earth Shock is more damage than Flame Shock, considering it deals less damage pre-modifiers and Flame Shock receives a larger benefit from modifiers. The fact that you gain more damage from a critical Earth Shock than you do from a critical Flame Shock is not enough to overcome this. Our spell crit chance is considerably low, and we don't have Elemental Fury so a critical strike is only a 50% increase in damage.

Earth Shock interupts spell casting and doesn't take up a debuff slot. It should deal less damage than Flame Shock, and it does.

Also, regarding the hit vs. crit vs. attack power replies; I think a lot of people forget that Stormstrike and Windfury Weapon procs cap out at a much lower level of hit % than our normal melee attacks do. I don't know about you guys, by my Windfury procs and Stormstrike attacks account for a very large chunk of my total damage. About 50% to be exact. Now, you can recite the "you can't proc windfury or crit if you don't hit" mantra, or you can actually run the math for yourself based on your own stats. I have, and that is how I rank these stats based on my results. Interestingly enough, I believe this is how Blizzard's itemization formula ranks them aswell.

It's also possible that I suck at math. I'd love to be made aware of that if that happens to be the case!

You assume 5 scorch debuffs at all times, as well as a warlock(s) for curse, which isn't always on (but should be in a 25 man situation). With three aff spec locks and a few shadow priests/bleed druids, the debuff count gets quite high really fast. However, if you do have a firemage using scorch, then yes it is slightly higher dps.

You also fail to defend your SS at every moment comment. Waiting a half second is worth if for a proc. Honestly, I'm not sure if SS/WF damage caps out at a lower hit, but iin any case you would be silly to neglect the importance of white damage next patch, with the melee changes.

Which mod is this?

http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/downl...823/wfwatcher/

That?

Yes it is.

Originally Posted by Hellcry

It is possible that you did the math for an unbuffed scenario. When I value gear I always assume All pots/flasks and the buffs I usually have when i raid.

As I said earlier gearing for max dmg solo is not at all the same as gearing for max dmg in raids.

A very good point. BoM, GoA, SoE, BoK, and every type of consumable aims towards crit and AP, which are massive (I must assume me and Sebudai are talking about 25 man raids, or his flame shock points are mute). I'd love a hit/crit flask, but alas

◊ Kalman · 04/21/07, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

Uhh... yes you can. Think about what you're saying here - you're suggesting that increasing your hit/crit makes your AP scale (increase). It doesn't. That would be like saying that your AP scales your Strength - that by increasing AP your strength would benefit. But the other way around, saying that Strength scales your AP is a true statement. As you increase Strength your AP scales upward. As AP goes up, your hits and crits do more damage, thus they scale with AP. Increase your hit/crit and keep your AP constant and the AP doesn't receive any benefit from hit/crit.

As AP increases, your hits and crits do more damage, thus they scale with AP.

As hit/crit increases, a given amount of AP is worth more damage, thus it scales with hit/crit.

I went through this in a very, very long thread on the rogue forums a long time ago. They scale with one another - the value of one is very much dependent on the value of the others.

Sebudai · 04/21/07, 7:33 PM

Uh, I don't think assuming the mob will have Curse of Elements and Fire Vulnerability is a very big stretch. I'm sure there are a few encounters in which this will not be possible, and you would just use Earth Shock. We're talking in general terms, though.

Also, I'm not really sure what you're even arguing, Igniter. Hit rating is a good stat for us. So is attack power, and so is crit rating. I've never said you don't want hit rating, or that you should even focus on any one stat over the others. The fact that you really shouldn't is my whole point.

I've yet to see any evidence to support the common argument that you can somehow reach a 'comfortable' level of attack power and then all your focus should be on hit rating. All 3 of these stats are good for us, all the time, in an almost endless amount, and all 3 of them scale with eachother. So I don't really get it when people say things like "Ok, I've got 1300 attack power, now I can focus strictly on hit rating!". This type of argmuent doesn't make any sense to me beyond stacking enough crit to keep Unleashed Rage/Flurry going.

Igniter · 04/21/07, 9:09 PM

I guess we're just weird; our guild doesn't usually have a fire mage.

Ashiya · 04/21/07, 10:03 PM

Regarding enchants on weapons, I kinda took Potency without thinking but I was wondering if Crusader is better or not?

• Relwin · 04/21/07, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ashiya

Regarding enchants on weapons, I kinda took Potency without thinking but I was wondering if Crusader is better or not?

Crusader is still 60 str at level 70. It's been said in more than a few threads around here that it's still far and away better than potency.

Ashiya · 04/21/07, 10:35 PM

Alright, so its definitely worth getting then. Sorry about asking it again, but the amount of information about windfury and shaman itemization is so huge and hard to go through and find the information you are looking for.

Morelis · 04/22/07, 1:49 AM

Originally Posted by Relwin

Crusader is still 60 str at level 70. It's been said in more than a few threads around here that it's still far and away better than potency.

Correct me if I'm wrong or have overlooked something but crusader is 1 ppm and has a 15 second duration. So the buff should be up 25% of the time on average, which would make it equal to having +15 str all the time. Wouldn't that make potency's +20 str superior?

Hellcry · 04/22/07, 2:12 AM

Originally Posted by Morelis

Correct me if I'm wrong or have overlooked something but crusader is 1 ppm and has a 15 second duration. So the buff should be up 25% of the time on average, which would make it equal to having +15 str all the time. Wouldn't that make potency's +20 str superior?

It is 1 ppm if you only aa without flurry. Factor in flurry (possibly other haste effects), WF, SS and you will be getting like tripple the amount of attacks compared to the first scenario. What it does to Crusader uptime is kinda obvious.

Morelis · 04/22/07, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by Hellcry

It is 1 ppm if you only aa without flurry. Factor in flurry (possibly other haste effects), WF, SS and you will be getting like tripple the amount of attacks compared to the first scenario. What it does to Crusader uptime is kinda obvious.

I was fairly certain haste effects didn't change ppm, could be wrong though. Also it's a bit anecdotal but I can remember using procwatch on my warrior way back with dual crusader and getting a rate very close to 2 ppm.

Darkmantle · 04/22/07, 2:36 AM

Originally Posted by Morelis

Correct me if I'm wrong or have overlooked something but crusader is 1 ppm and has a 15 second duration. So the buff should be up 25% of the time on average, which would make it equal to having +15 str all the time. Wouldn't that make potency's +20 str superior?

Crusade is 1 PPM when auto attacking without haste. Chuck instant attacks + haste effects and it will be up significantly more than 25%.

Igniter · 04/22/07, 5:32 PM

Am I the only one who's in love with mongoose?

Pane · 04/22/07, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

All 3 of these stats are good for us, all the time, in an almost endless amount, and all 3 of them scale with eachother.

I assume you use the 'almost endless amount' as a figure of speech. But on the off-chance that you're not; there's a clear hit cap, and there's a crit cap too. I'm not aware of any AP cap, so the sentiment would only hold true there.

On the second part of your statement, the synergies between hit and crit aren't all that clear cut. Crit benefits from hit, but only if you have such an amount of crit that you're capped, without yet being capped on hit. And I can't think of a scenario where your hit rating benefits from your crit rating.

Btw: sabashra, any chance of a link to your sheet?

• Disquette · 04/22/07, 7:01 PM

Originally Posted by Pane

Btw: sabashra, any chance of a link to your sheet?

Add my name to the list of requesters as well, please!

• Relwin · 04/22/07, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by Pane

I assume you use the 'almost endless amount' as a figure of speech. But on the off-chance that you're not; there's a clear hit cap, and there's a crit cap too.

Has anyone figured out what exactly the hit cap is for dual wielding against 73s yet?

The number I've seen the most times on our forums is 25.5%, however, my shaman is currently sitting at 25.61% and getting misses all the same. (to the tune of .6-.7% usually)

In reference to the Crusader followup from before that dude talking about instant attacks and such contributing heavily to uptime had it right. Because we have WF crusader is better.

sabashra · 04/22/07, 9:38 PM

Here is the latest version of the spreadsheet. It's still pretty unpolished and not very user friendly.

http://www.savefile.com/files/633759

The next iteration will allow for separate wepon buffs for MH and OH since that seems to make a difference in 2.1. I'm also still uncertain on the effective proc rate of windfury.

mek · 04/22/07, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Igniter

Am I the only one who's in love with mongoose?

I was reluctant to enchant Mongoose since it's not "optimal", but it's actually quite spectacular. The haste is virtually unnoticeable, but +240agi from dual mongoose is almost +10% crit, and that does wonderful things to flurry uptime... making it a very substantial dps boost.