That is not made up numbers, it is quoted from Aran (5 sunders + faerie fire + CoR = near 0 armour with flask of relentless + all elixers = plain damn silly) if you want a screeny then I will get one this week (hell I'll get two if he bugs again). But as it stands you can get 4 WF main hand procs in one swing, and if you buff hard enough then its retarded in the damage you can do.

It needs fixing, thats damn clear, yes a fixed 3 sec cooldown on all windfury is too far, but the current situation is far too powerful.

A screenie would be awesome ^_^ I believe you though, seeing as we've had a couple shammies turning in the same OP ass reports.

A snippet of a combat log proves... what? That we have uncontrollable burst? I think we all knew that.

The issue is :
A) Our sustained damage; and
B) Our burst damage;

It's not clear which of these, and at what magnitude, Blizzard wants A and B to change. Fixing WF downranking bug without fixing the WF proc cooldown nerfs both A and B to a huge degree, and I don't think Blizzard means for our sustained damage to be reduced by 15%.

Blizzard's solution is also horrible because it breaks certain itemization and talents for us. Slow weapons become nessecary. But UR/SR all work better with fast weapons. Fast weapons are better for threat. The DPS increase of Flurry is called into question. +haste is alot less useful. Hell, dual wield may no longer be worthwhile (which would mean, we'd go for slow two handed weapons again, making us WF burst wonders again).

I would say that
a) sustained damage is too high
and b) burst is too high.

What we need is sustained damage that with the same level of gear is at ~90% of a rogue (high enough that in a 5 man we are still viable, but low enough that in a raid we are more a melee buff that a chosen class). And since it is entirely chance based our burst damage is far too high.

When you have some control over it a high burst can make sense, when its comes up with total fluke, with no control at all the burst that is currently achievable is very silly.

Once again I do not like the forced 3 second cooldown, but I still prefer it to current ( I run heroics with WF 5/5 to avoid stupid WF aggro sprees that only serve to kill me), as it stands WF 5/4 is able to produce completely insane burst and needs a fix. If it nerfs the hell out of enhance in the short term so be it, because doing more damage than other melee classes, while buffing their damage is moronic.

(sorry to the OP who seems to want non of this in the tread, but the thread seems to want it)

How is it worse (for other classes) if our burst is uncontrollable? It means we're less viable in PvP. In PvE, the risk of a threat spike curbs our effective dps. Let's not forget that, aside from Ret Paladins and maybe Moonkin, Enhancement Shaman are the most threat limited class in the game. This is already an effective means of ensuring we are below other melee in terms of relative DPS.

If our sustained damage and burst is too high, there are other ways to reduce it, without destroying our gear and talent choices. Reduce the AP bonus of WF, make it a 35% chance to proc for one extra hit instead of two.

This seems to have gone a bit far from the original premise of the thread, but I think it's still relevant. Is there still reason to go with dual wield with +hit? I mostly went for +hit over AP, because of the additional chance of WF procs. Given the change to WF, should I focus more on AP now? Or go 2h Enh?

Two hand is still far far worse, +hit is still worthwhile, what this does is make slower offhands better and if your offhand is fast enough then using rockbiter over windfury is better. But basic itemisation besides the offhand is still the same (as far as I can tell).

Hey if that's what people want to talk about, let em talk! I don't "own" the thread.


As for the insane Aran damage, we can do that if our AP gets above 2500, which means all those pots, Battleshout, totem, Trinket, and unleashed rage. To segue back to my OP, we can only achieve that kind of silly AP in those situations, and not with gear. I have gotten up to 1200 AP in current gear, but only 8% hit from gear alone, and 20% crit. The numbers shown at Aran are VERY bursty, requiring an insane amount of things to happen, including not getting aggro, which no one mentioned about the Aran fight. It my crappy blue weapons I can crit for about 2k on Aran in very bursty situations, and it's neat, but doing that much damage normally is BAD because the mob won't look at anyone else.

One of the big problems with the WF cooldown is average Joe Enhancement won't get any invites any more. I already get turned down for PuGs because enhancment is "stupid" and "shitty off-spec", even though I usually top the DPS of 5-man pugs. After the WF nerf, it WILL be a "shitty off-spec" for people under 1200 AP unbuffed.

To compensate for the 3 sec timer, perhaps give us back that 9% to hit from the enh talents, totaling 12 from talents, which frees us up to get gear more focused on AP and Crit.

Slow offhand was already better than a fast one. You get bigger stormstrikes (and yes the difference is noticable in terms of dps), and shamanistic rage is proc per minute, so heavily favors slow weapons.

Another reason, although this will be sorted, was that unleashed rage will go off _too often_ using a fast weapon. You want it to be up most of the time, but not refresh it every 2 seconds, considering how much threat it builds for you.

hasn't it been confirmed by blue that UR threat was unintended and is being removed?


edit: yeah, here's it is http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....o=20&sid=1#394

I thought it was fairly obvious from my post that I am aware of that. Hence the 'this will be sorted' and the past tense.

guess i glossed over it. what's the point of mentioning it in the first place though if you know it will be a non-issue next patch?

back on topic by the way; what are the desirable enhancement boots, considering the Fiend Slayer nerf that's incoming?

Ferocious Swift-Kickers off Nightbane are pretty nice.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28610

Well, by pretty nice, I mean a green with sockets, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30953
....but since it's a socketed epic it's probably getting a slight buff next patch.

Quick question: haven't had time to read the entire thread and the linked blue thread, but does this change make speccing into DW kinda pointless? Would switching back to 2H make sense given the 3 sec cooldown and the "fix" to the downranking bug?

If anything two-handing it exaggerates the problem since you'd need a non-existent 3.9 weapon to avoid having 2 swings between cooldowns when flurried, and it's certainly far less reliable than dual wield for proccing UR and returning mana from SR and JoW.

Not to mention the max dmg output from a 2h is begging for aggro.

I think that if we focus on hit rating and AP, we could still have plenty of damage output to warrant our raid utility.

OP to be edited shortly.

one of the theorycrafters on the EU wow boards went out into the woods and found out by himself; link here http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....11401310&sid=1

That seems to just fly in the face of everything we've observed with SR - that faster weapons return far more mana.

I can't access the euro forums right now, but I'm going to agree with Malan on this one. From what I've observed, slow 2h weapons proc almost every time, but you don't get anywhere near the same number of procs as DW fast weapons.

I'm using a 2.2 and 1.6 weapon right now, and also have a 3.5 2h. So over a 30sec period I see: (*warning: bad math incoming*)

DW:
13 swings with MH + flurry (x1.3)= 17 swings
18 swings with OF + flurry (x1.3)= 23 swings
40 swings + WF = 56 swings

2h:
8 swings + flurry (x1.3) = 11 swings
11 swings + WF = 15 swings

WF just amplifies the procs, i've gotten 4x SR procs on a 4x WF proc before. Crappy math aside, I would never consider using a 2h while using SR. Even if a 2h procced every swing and DW only procced a third of the time, you'd still be getting more from DW. This isn't even taking bloodlust into account. Bloodlust + raid buffs + trinket + SR = full mana bar. I can't spend mana as fast as I regen it.

Side note, I'm usually wearing my BGotD for any long raid fight.

I don't think the concern is about using a slow two hander, but rather using a pair of slow one handers to maximize stormstrike and windfury damage.

I'm just trying to find a suitable balance between damage output (seems to favor slow weapons) and sustainability (fast weapons for mana returns with JoW / SR and less spikey threat).

the fact that your slow 2h procs almost every time to me sounds like at least some evidence that it's a ppm, wouldn't you agree?

now with a 2h you're not getting enough swings in your 'SR uptime' to fill up that mana bar, but 2 slow 1handers, proccing wf and flurried, do a damn fine job.

Earlier in this thread, there was some discussion about the relative benefit from AP/str, crit, hit, agi. I'm wondering if anyone has any rough conversion factors. Even if not supported by much theorycrafting or testing, it would be nice to have some kind of AP Equivalent Points (or whatever you'd like to call it).

My sense so far is that 1% hit will raise DPS ~1%, up to a cap around 27% total, is that correct?
1% of crit probably has more than 1% DPS boost, due to flurry and UR procs.
I don't have a good grasp on whether 1% AP boost results in approximately 1% DPS boost, or if it's more than that or perhaps highly dependent upon weapons.

This is all oriented around picking between two items -- even something as simple as picking between "of the bandit" and "of the soldier" greens.