[top] .67 * .36 * .1

• Disquette · 06/01/07, 3:21 PM

Those are nice screenies Stigmata, thank you.

Donzilly · 06/01/07, 5:25 PM

Can we get some ideal of kill times to gague DPS. I guess i can check how much damage I'm doing next Leo/Hydross/Void reaver kills but thats doesn't mean alot if its taking me less/more time to kill shit. Are you kills about 3:00 minutes short of the enrage timer for Leotheras and hydross? I would guess that your Leo time is faster because your ranged must dps during WW- we generally stop DPS so there's a lot less chance of dying...and some of our ranged make mistakes...and rogues end up raping that fight too.

Xoya · 06/01/07, 5:31 PM

Gladiator 2.6 > Runic Hammer > Blue 2.6 OH > Fel Edged Battleaxe > Gladiator 1.5

Taking that from much earlier in the thread (like 10 pages ago), where do Malchazeen and green 2.6 speed offhands fit in?

• Erongg · 06/01/07, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by Xoya

Stigmata, what's your offhand? Not showing up on your armory profile.

I remember him saying earlier that he has the Al'ar axe OH.

Nite_Moogle · 06/01/07, 5:43 PM

Originally Posted by Xoya

Gladiator 2.6 > Runic Hammer > Blue 2.6 OH > Fel Edged Battleaxe > Gladiator 1.5

Taking that from much earlier in the thread (like 10 pages ago), where do Malchazeen and green 2.6 speed offhands fit in?

Assuming you have a Fool's Bane in the main hand, Malchazeen (and the Emerald Ripper) are slightly above the Gladiator offhand, but not by enough to matter. The green 2.6 offhand is likely under the Fel Edged Battleaxe if you have anything faster than a Fool's Bane, and probably pretty close to it otherwise. I don't think there's anyone that has had enough cash and time to try all these out to give a definitive answer. I'm not totally convinced that the Harvester of Souls offhand is worse than the Runic Hammer either [when matched with FB] given that you can abuse flurry with the HoS and there's only a realistic difference of about 6 DPS between the two weapons when offhanded. I'll be taking a crack at the Exarch this weekend so hopefully he'll be nice and give me one to try.

bestpike · 06/01/07, 11:12 PM

Shamans should not get agility and get crit rating? so how do you explain the tons of agility in all the enhancement set Tiers, einsteins? oh yea im sure blizzard is totally wrong for whats best for the class.
armor and dodge are very valuable for damage mitigation and survivability. dont underestimate them. oh, and if some tier 5 drops, say you dont need them because they have agility. kkthxbye

-Mod Edit-
How about you clowns check The Banhammer sub-forum and stop reporting this. Thanks.

Malan · 06/01/07, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by bestpike

Shamans should not get agility and get crit rating? so how do you explain the tons of agility in all the enhancement set Tiers, einsteins? oh yea im sure blizzard is totally wrong for whats best for the class.
armor and dodge are very valuable for damage mitigation and survivability. dont underestimate them. oh, and if some tier 5 drops, say you dont need them because they have agility. kkthxbye

Please don't ever post like that on this forum again.

Also, what post were you responding to that someone said not to get agility? The first page?

RikkiP · 06/01/07, 11:28 PM

I can help you a little with Stigmata's information. He is currently using the Netherbane axe from Al'ar in his offhand, except on Kael'thas when he uses the 2h axe Devastation.

The fights that I remember the kill times for are Void Reaver clocking in at 6 minutes and Solarian was just around 5:40.

skeeter12 · 06/02/07, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Despite what a lot of people seem to think for some reason unknown to me, +hit rating does not have some magical property that makes it more important or better than an 'equal' amount of attack power or +crit rating.

I only have 108 hit rating and I do a lot more dps on Hydross than Kazanir's shaman are doing in that WWS. Hit is good. Crit is good. Attack power is good. They're all good. There is no reason to favor one of these stats over an equal amount of another.

Here's a Hydross 2.1 WWS: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...100/index.html

I'm doing more damage in 6 minutes than Kazanir's shaman are doing in 9 minutes, with less hit rating than both of them. The reason I outdamage them is my gear is just better than theirs, even though my hit rating is much lower. Would they deal more damage with more hit rating? Yes. They would also deal more damage with more attack power, crit rating and better weapons.

Your shaman need better gear and a proper group with Battle Shout and maybe Leader of the Pack. Broodwich should replace that blue gem in his shoulders and get them enchanted. He should also put +6 to all stats on his breastplate and a +8 strength gem in his bracers. Both of them should buy a Bloodlust Brooch and go farm a Totem of Astral Winds from Mana Tombs aswell.

If you look that damage is for me is only for 6min of the fight. Unfortunately I died and had used my ankh on a previous attempt. I appreciate the info, I have been trying to get that totem out of MT (heroic), but I havent had much luck. I was thinking that the Bloodlust Brooch would be another good investment, so I have been saving up my badges for it. Unfortunately summer hit and I started working again so I havent't been able to do many heroics. I do think I have a good balance of hit, crit and AP, though more of each would be nice.

Stigmata · 06/02/07, 2:44 AM

Originally Posted by Xoya

Stigmata, what's your offhand? Not showing up on your armory profile.

Netherbane

Solariam, 6 minutes 10 seconds, VR 5 minutes 58 seconds, Hydross, 7 minutes 37 seconds, dont have the time on the rest.

Universal · 06/02/07, 4:46 AM

Originally Posted by Disquette

And yes, I'm rather scared of this regarding the light-weighting +hit gets compared to what people have been saying for months - It runs so counter to all that we've heard, so I'm a little nervous for people to be making serious gear choices based on it. On the other hand, I haven't seen any good math showing the contrary.

I have been part of the +hit camp, because all the theorycrafting I had seen and done personally said that hit% and crit% were more or less equal, with hit rating being better by a factor of 1.5 because of the conversion. As a result, I found the results in this thread shocking to say the least. I've gone back over the theorycrafting and think I have a pretty good explanation of why +hit isn't as good as we all thought.

First, I am going to ignore a variety of minor effects. For example +hit is better for shamanistic rage if you are having mana problems and for abilities that proc on hits (mongoosel). +crit is better for unleashed rage uptime and abilities that proc on crits (hourglass of the unraveller). Overall I think these are fairly small and everyone will have a mix of both, so for most people this is probably a wash. I'll also leave out shocks since those are entirely unaffected.

With that in mind, lets look at melee dps. Stormstrike is the easiest. Everyone with reasonable gear is hit capped, so crit is the clear winner here. However, stormstrike is only 10%ish of dps, so the effect isn't huge. Still, this is a win for crit.

White attacks are (ignoring flurry for the moment) dead even. Consider a single swing. 1% hit will increase the expected damage by 1% of the expected value of a hit. 1% crit will also increase the expected damage by 1% of the expected value of a hit. Once you factor in flurry, this is again a small win for crit (but note that this win diminishes as your crit increases because flurry is already up so much of the time). So looking at things this far, it looks like a slight win for crit, but given the better conversion of hit rating as long as windfury is pretty close then hit is probably a better stat.

Windfury is I think where everyone has gone astray. The problem is that if you base your theorycrafting on the tooltip, hit and crit still look pretty even. If each swing has a 20% chance, then 1%hit means a ~1%increase in windfury procs while 1% crit means a ~1%increase in damage if it hits, which makes hit look slightly better since windfury has to proc before it can crit. The problem is that, as we all know, this tooltip has no correspondence to reality. The implementation of windfury screws over +hit. The cooldown means that the increase in hit doesn't need to nearly the increase of windfury procs we would expect (there are some nice graphs of this effect in post 331). Furthermore, crit narrows the gap by generating extra procs through flurry. Although the exact magnitude of the effect is difficult to calculate, the fact that extra procs are harder to come by means that getting more out of the procs you are already getting (by critting) is significantly more helpful than trying for more procs.

This means that, due to bass ackwards windfury implementation, crit beats out hit for all 3 major sources of melee dps. So as far as I can tell, theorycrafting meshes well with all the simulations. And that means I need to redo my gear.

Tornhoof · 06/02/07, 10:19 AM

Math showing the contrary? lemme throw in some numbers for the technical min. necessary crit rate:

Unleashed Rage without flurry, 10s with two 2.5s weapons get you some 8 swings + 2 Stormstrike, so with flurry we're well above 10 swings to keep it running:
with 30% crit the UR uptime is 1-(1-0.3)^10, which is 97%.
Flurry with 30% crit is around 65.7% uptime. Basically a 20% DPS increase by flurry.
Flurry with 40% crit is around 78.4% uptime. Basically a 23.52% DPS increase by flurry.

So we gain about 3% more DPS from flurry by increasing the crit from 30% to 40%, additionally we get 1.4/1.3 increase in DPS by the pure crit value, multiplying those together, we get some 11% increase by 10% crit.

Example: X does 900 DPS with 30% crit without flurry and without crits calculated, simplified dps calc.
1.1*1.2*1.3*900 = 1544.4

Unleashed Rage is no reason for Crit, as soon as you get above 30%

1.1*1.2352*1.4*900 = 1711 DPS

Net DPS increase is around 11% as stated above.

If we take the average Damage distribution: 50% white, 40% wf, 10% SS

We can assume of the above values and 85% hit
1544.4*0.9/0.85 = 1635.2

with 95% hit it is 1635.2*0.95 = 1553.4 + 1544*0.1 = 1708 DPS

The netto difference between 10% crit and 10% hit is wit the above exaggerated base DPS 3 DPS, if we scale it down to the half, the difference is even less.

As a result:

There is no need to redo your equipment if you have huge +hit values, the difference is close to non existing. It is still true that one hit is still comparable to one crit for simple stat calculations.

You can easily gain more crit by buffs, but you can't gain more +hit by buffs.

The rule of thumb is still to stack +hit and to get +crit by external buffs, as soon as you reach a buffed crit value of 30%.

P.S.:
@Universal, your assumptions of WF and hit problems are true, if WF would behave like the theory explains it, but it does not. As long as you can still get close to 20% WF proc rates with slow weapons, stacking +hit is still superior, because +crit can be easily gained elsewhere.
If you're already on the way to the +hit gear, continue on it, it's just as fine and actually getting 10% +hit is easier, as you explained than getting 10% +crit, due to rating conversions.

• Disquette · 06/02/07, 10:50 AM

edit for me to read it again. I may repost what I'd written, but I want to be careful.

Ok, please bear with me in case I've missed something.

Start with your base 1544dps (30% crit, 85% hit)

The affect of increasing hit by 10%, given your 50% white damage, 50% yellow damage, is

1544 * 50% (hit is affecting only white damage) * (.95/.85) (increase hit rate by 10%) = 863 dps instead of 1544 * 50% = 772.

So, 10% +hit has an increase of 91 dps.
10% +crit, as you showed above, has an increase of 167 dps.

Now, at this point, i think you could legitimately say "well, with the 10% more hit, we'll be proc'ing WF more often". So, in that case, pretending that we're spending 67% of our time outside the 3 sec cooldown, we will proc an additional:

67% (eligible hits) x
36% (WF chance) x <-- THANKS Universal for reminding me. shame on me for forgetting ;-)
10% (increased hit rate)

[top] .67 * .36 * .1

2.41% windfury

and, according to the 50/40/10 white/wf/ss breakdown, we can say that that's worth 1544dps * 40% (windfury %) * 2.41% (increase in WF due to hit) = 14.9 dps. call it 15dps

So, as far as I can tell...

10% hit, by your reasoning = 15 + 91 = 106 dps increase
10% crit, by your reasoning = 167 dps increase.

It still heavily favors crit. Note that it's also pretty darn close to the 1 to 1.5 ratio of hit to crit that the simulators predict ;-)

If I've done something wrong in my math, or made a leap of logic that I shouldn't have, please do point it out. It was a bit hard to follow your numbers because some of them were referenced earlier, and a couple had implied antecedants. Perhaps that's where I lost your theorycrafting.

Universal · 06/02/07, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Tornhoof

Math showing the contrary? lemme throw in some numbers for the technical min. necessary crit rate:

Unleashed Rage without flurry, 10s with two 2.5s weapons get you some 8 swings + 2 Stormstrike, so with flurry we're well above 10 swings to keep it running:
with 30% crit the UR uptime is 1-(1-0.3)^10, which is 97%.
Flurry with 30% crit is around 65.7% uptime. Basically a 20% DPS increase by flurry.
Flurry with 40% crit is around 78.4% uptime. Basically a 23.52% DPS increase by flurry.

So we gain about 3% more DPS from flurry by increasing the crit from 30% to 40%, additionally we get 1.4/1.3 increase in DPS by the pure crit value, multiplying those together, we get some 11% increase by 10% crit.

Example: X does 900 DPS with 30% crit without flurry and without crits calculated, simplified dps calc.
1.1*1.2*1.3*900 = 1544.4

Unleashed Rage is no reason for Crit, as soon as you get above 30%

1.1*1.2352*1.4*900 = 1711 DPS

Net DPS increase is around 11% as stated above.

If we take the average Damage distribution: 50% white, 40% wf, 10% SS

We can assume of the above values and 85% hit
1544.4*0.9/0.85 = 1635.2

with 95% hit it is 1635.2*0.95 = 1553.4 + 1544*0.1 = 1708 DPS

The netto difference between 10% crit and 10% hit is wit the above exaggerated base DPS 3 DPS, if we scale it down to the half, the difference is even less.

As a result:

There is no need to redo your equipment if you have huge +hit values, the difference is close to non existing. It is still true that one hit is still comparable to one crit for simple stat calculations.

You can easily gain more crit by buffs, but you can't gain more +hit by buffs.

The rule of thumb is still to stack +hit and to get +crit by external buffs, as soon as you reach a buffed crit value of 30%.

P.S.:
@Universal, your assumptions of WF and hit problems are true, if WF would behave like the theory explains it, but it does not. As long as you can still get close to 20% WF proc rates with slow weapons, stacking +hit is still superior, because +crit can be easily gained elsewhere.
If you're already on the way to the +hit gear, continue on it, it's just as fine and actually getting 10% +hit is easier, as you explained than getting 10% +crit, due to rating conversions.

I'll start with your last comment first. What do you mean WF does not behave like the theory explains it? Disquette and I have both done experiments that show that the proc rate is clearly greater that 20% outside of the cooldown, and he has a large sample showing this number is around 36%. This number also explains the 25% proc rates people were reporting when the cooldowns were unlinked.

Your calculation is a perfect example of the old calculations I have seen that favor +hit. However, it assumes that windfury damage gets the full benefit from +hit. What model of windfury are you using that gives it the full benefit of +hit and still a 20%ish proc rate over time with a 3 second cooldown?

Tornhoof · 06/02/07, 2:06 PM

@Universal & Disquette: Hmm yes, i understand your reasoning.

Updated version, apparently my c->maple filter had some bugs.

baseap := 2600;
wdps1 := 90;
wdps2 := 90;
haste := 0;
glancingreduction := 30;
glancingchance := 25;
glancing := glancingreduction * glancingchance / 100;
dodge := 5.6;
hitwhite := min(1 - 0.24 - 0.006 + hit / 100, 1);
hityellow := min(1 - 0.05 - 0.006 + hit / 100, 1);
avghit := (hityellow + hitwhite) / 2;
noncrit := (1 - crit / 100);
wsmh := ws1 / (1 + haste / 100 +  0.3 * (1 - noncrit^3));
wsoh := ws2 / (1 + haste / 100 + 0.3 * (1 - noncrit^3));
avgspeed := (wsmh + wsoh) / 2;
wfnerf := 0.1 + ((0.2 - 0.1) / (2.8 - 1.0)) * (avgspeed - 1.0);
wfproc := 2 * wfnerf * 1.4;
ssmh := 1 + hityellow * wsmh / 10;
ssoh := 1 + hityellow * wsoh / 10;
hastemh := ws1 / wsmh;
hasteoh := ws2 / wsoh;
ap := baseap * (1 + 0.1 * (1 - noncrit^(avghit * (1+2*wfnerf)*(20 / (wsmh + wsoh)) +2)));
wfap := (475 + ap);
mhwhitedps := 1 / 100 * (hitwhite * 100 + crit - glancing - dodge) * (wdps1 + ap / 14);
mhyellowdps := 1 / 100 * ((hitwhite * hityellow) * 100 + crit - dodge) * wfproc * (wdps1 + wfap / 14);
mhdps := 1.1 * ssmh * hastemh * (mhwhitedps + mhyellowdps);
ohwhitedps := 0.5 * 1 / 100 * (hitwhite * 100 + crit - glancing - dodge) * (wdps2 + ap / 14);
ohyellowdps := 0.5 * 1 / 100 * ((hitwhite * hityellow) * 100 + crit - dodge) * wfproc * (wdps2 + wfap / 14);
ohdps := 1.1 * ssoh * hasteoh * (ohwhitedps + ohyellowdps);
finaldps := mhdps + ohdps;

with

C1 := ws1 >= 1.3;
C2 := ws1 <= 2.8;
C3 := ws2 >= 1.3;
C4 := ws2 <= 2.8;
C5 := hit >= 9;
C6 := hit <= 27.6;
C7 := crit >= 9;
C8 := crit <= 40;
NLPSolve(finaldps,{C1,C2,C3,C4,C5,C6,C7,C8}, maximize);

results in:

[1458.21819938620320, [hit = 27.6000000000000014, crit = 40., ws1 = 2.79999999999999982, ws2 = 2.79999999999999982]]

and a ratio of 1.28 for crit/hit.

Pater · 06/02/07, 2:36 PM

Your model is saying that optimal hit is 27.6%? Doesn't that indicate a bug, since hit has no effect above some point (either 24.6% or, more likely, 25.5%)?

GamingManiac · 06/02/07, 2:44 PM

Apologies if I missed an update somewhere, but I just wanted to double check that the original AEP points were still correct, in which:

1 AP = 1.08 HR = 1.51 CR = 1.3384 Agility = 2 Str

I was reading through the posts, saw that tidbit, but it was at least a month old (aka before 2.1 was out) and I was wondering if any new information impacting that has come out. Secondly, is this universal no matter what your stats are (obviously up to the crit-cap/hit-cap), or does it fluctuate as your stats rise and fall?

Edit: I JUST saw the post 2 above me, where 1.2 crit roughly equal to 1 hit, I guess some information has been updated since. Is there any information on how AP translates for that?

Zraknul · 06/02/07, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by GamingManiac

Apologies if I missed an update somewhere, but I just wanted to double check that the original AEP points were still correct, in which:

1 AP = 1.08 HR = 1.51 CR = 1.3384 Agility = 2 Str

I was reading through the posts, saw that tidbit, but it was at least a month old (aka before 2.1 was out) and I was wondering if any new information impacting that has come out. Secondly, is this universal no matter what your stats are (obviously up to the crit-cap/hit-cap), or does it fluctuate as your stats rise and fall?

Edit: I JUST saw the post 2 above me, where 1.2 crit roughly equal to 1 hit, I guess some information has been updated since. Is there any information on how AP translates for that?

Just off the top of my head, you likely have an error in there somewhere, as 1 AP != 2 str, since 2 str gives 4 AP. Maybe 0.5 str?

Tornhoof · 06/02/07, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Pater

Your model is saying that optimal hit is 27.6%? Doesn't that indicate a bug, since hit has no effect above some point (either 24.6% or, more likely, 25.5%)?

Well 27.6% is computed as following (that was found on an earlier wowwiki page):

5% base + 19% dw miss
0.6% for the 15 points * 0.04 def-weaponskill difference
3% hit malus for fighting against +3 lvl targets.

In the rogue thread, they said once, that with 24.6% you still have misses, i know the statistical approach for 25.5%, i currently just stick with 27.6% until it's really proven wrong, reaching it is purely hypothetical anyway.

Maple just says, the optimal hit is as much as hit as possible to not miss anymore with white swings (in my model 27.6, in yours 25.5).

• Disquette · 06/02/07, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Zraknul

Just off the top of my head, you likely have an error in there somewhere, as 1 AP != 2 str, since 2 str gives 4 AP. Maybe 0.5 str?

the formula posted was a valuation formula.

If item x has 3 str and 6 ap, the value of the item = 3 * 2 (for str) + 6 * 1 (for ap)

so, that's not an equivalency formula, it's a pawn string for evaluating an item. If you want an equivalency formula, divide 1 by all the values that were listed.

• Disquette · 06/02/07, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tornhoof

@Universal & Disquette: Hmm yes, i understand your reasoning.

output is:
[1347.29775408253318, [hit = 27.6000000000000014, crit = 35.1974733697632658, ws1 = 2.79999999999999982, ws2 = 2.79999999999999982]]

Edit: No matter, I found the bug, as for now the above mathematical model takes at 2600 AP and two 90 DPS weapons with 2.6s, that one Hit is about 0.8 +Crit, meaning that one Crit gives about 1.2 times more bang for the buck

For other weapons and ap values the value remains at 1.2, max is around at 1.22, with lower glancing

Ok, I'm going to respond in chunks, because this is a lot of stuff to go at simultaneously.

First off, why do you have glancing at 40% (the old rate), and reduction at 35% (not sure where this comes from, is that the old value as well?).

The higher the glancing rate, the more +hit helps, since your initial pool of +hit is smaller, so increasing it has higher relative values as you start lower. (adding 1% "full damage" hit to a 10% chance is more valuable than adding 1% "full damage" hit to a 20% chance)

EDIT 1:
Next up, i'm not sure what: wfnerf := 0.1 + ((0.2 - 0.1) / (2.8 - 1.0)) * (avgspeed - 1.0);
means.

EDIT 3: oh, i see, you're linearizing the effect of the windfury nerf, saying 2.8 speed = 20% chance, 1.0 speed = 10% chance. got it, nevermind edit 1, but i'm leaving it in here for stream of consciousness.

EDIT 2:
wfproc := 2 * wfnerf * 1.4;
is that elemental weapons's effect on 2 hits of windfury?
Actually, speaking of talents, since WF and SS are going to be landing more (percentage wise) than white hits, assuming you're not hit capped, they should be weighted to take credit for a higher percentage of weapon mastery's 10% bonus as well, further improving the value of +crit compared to +hit.

EDIT 4:
For stormstrike, the only lines that I see that refer to it are (main hand, the oh is the same):
ssmh := 1 + hityellow * wsmh / 10;
...
mhdps := 1.1 * ssmh * hastemh * (mhwhitedps + mhyellowdps);

how is it that we multiply things by storm strike damage?
as far as i can tell...

ssmh = 1 + 1 * 2.8 / 10 (assuming at least 8.6% hit)

[top] 1 + .28

1.28.

So, mh dps = 1.1 (weapon mastery?) * 1.28 (stormstike o_0 not affected by crit o_0) * haste * (white + yellow)
some of what you have done so far is pretty clever and it's taken a while for me to catch how you're doing it, but this one I'm not able to resolve.

EDIT 5:
I think I'm going to leave it here for now, with one final question. Your optimizing for highest dps, as I understand it. That's why:

weapon speeds end up at their max (2.79999 in your output) , paramaters C2 and C4
+hit ends up at its max (27.6000000) , parameter C6

Yet hit doesn't end up at its max, parameter C8.
Instead, you optimize that the best value of +crit to have is 35%, not the 40% that your code runs to.

So.... Either more crit can be a bad thing, and apparently we *want* crit to be less than 36%, or there's something fishy in the code, or you ran it with parameters other than the ones you listed. While I'd like to guess that you had C8 different for your run than what you listed as the input, it's hard for me to believe that you randomly chose "35.19" as the upper bound in that respect.

Stigmata · 06/02/07, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Pater

Your model is saying that optimal hit is 27.6%? Doesn't that indicate a bug, since hit has no effect above some point (either 24.6% or, more likely, 25.5%)?

Wouldn't the theoretical hit cap be 26% against lvl 73 bosses?

Nite_Moogle · 06/02/07, 3:27 PM

Relwin was still reporting misses with 26% hit, but I don't remember the exact hit rating.

Tornhoof · 06/02/07, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Disquette

Ok, I'm going to respond in chunks, because this is a lot of stuff to go at simultaneously.

First off, why do you have glancing at 40% (the old rate), and reduction at 35% (not sure where this comes from, is that the old value as well?).

The higher the glancing rate, the more +hit helps, since your initial pool of +hit is smaller, so increasing it has higher relative values as you start lower. (adding 1% "full damage" hit to a 10% chance is more valuable than adding 1% "full damage" hit to a 20% chance)

EDIT 1:
Next up, i'm not sure what: wfnerf := 0.1 + ((0.2 - 0.1) / (2.8 - 1.0)) * (avgspeed - 1.0);
means.

Also, if you're trying to see how often wf is happening, remember that wf has a 36% chance to proc on any attack out of cooldown, when dual wielding, not a 20% chance. I dont know if that's relevant to the code above since I'm not sure what you're doing there. .2 looked familiar though, so that's why I'm using it.

In general, what are you trying to do with this line?

EDIT 2:
wfproc := 2 * wfnerf * 1.4;
is that elemental weapons's effect on 2 hits of windfury?
Actually, speaking of talents, since WF and SS are going to be landing more than white hits, assuming you're not hit capped, they should be weighted to take credit for a higher percentage of weapon mastery's 10% bonus as well, further improving the value of +crit compared to +hit.

Yah, i updated my code to include the other glancing blow chances:

As for Edit1:

It is a linear scale from 10% procrate for 1.3s weapons up to 20% for 2.8s weapons, which appears to be correct at the time of writing on PTR. Is fairly consisten with your method of 36% max and using the 3s cd.

As for Edit2:

SS,Weapon mastery are later on multiplied in the final dps calculations, this is just for internal testing and the 1.4 should be pulled down to the final dps calculations for a cleaner layout.

As for Edit3:

mhwhitedps := 1 / 100 * (hitwhite * 100 + basecrit - glancing - dodge) * (wdps1 + ap / 14);

The relevant part

1 / 100 * (hitwhite * 100 + basecrit - glancing - dodge)

Hitwhite is actually a value below 1, as in 0.95.

The other values are percent type, so the parenthesis are actually for example: 95+40-25-5.6, this gets divided by 100, to actually get a meaningful factor.

Pater · 06/02/07, 3:58 PM

The rogue thread is so big and unwieldy that I really don't know their final conclusions, despite spending an hour or two reading through it this week. I didn't know Relwin was still reporting white misses at 26%, either. I know the pre-BC accepted formula gave a base DW miss chance against L63 at 24.6%. I thought that the consensus was now 25.5% against L73 (24% against even-level, increasing by 0.5% per level).

I'd really like to know the right answer, but it's really hard to find stuff in that thread. (Perhaps we should have a new thread that all classes will notice in with the title "Dual Wielding Miss Rates" or something.)

As far as glancing, the WWS fights I've been reviewing lately seem consistent (within statistical fluctuations) of 25% base glancing rate against L73 mobs, with base 25% reduction. I believe I've also seen a trend that rogues are consistently lower on both of these, so I suspect that these rates are modified by weapon skill.