Stigmata, how are you doing 1000 dps on Mag and Anetheron? Specifically, what raid buffs / potions are you using? Was this number much higher than your other fights because of demonslaying elixirs?
On Mag i use demonslaying, once the adds are down, then it runs off just as we kill him. Im in a group with 1 warrior, 2 rogues and a feral. I use 20 str food and pop trinkets during banish. Demonslaying certainly makes a difference but i would say its massive.
On Anetheron i used only a agi pot.
Originally Posted by Azaranth
My bigger question is how he's avoiding pulling aggro. Perhaps his guild just has superb tanks, but I have serious threat issues on many, many fights. In any fight where I'm allowed to just purely focus on the boss (like Tidewalker even), I'm at a very high risk of dying 2/3rds through the fight. I considerably hold back on most fights (because a living shaman at #6 on the meters is better than a dead shaman at #3).
Stigmata, are you using any threat reduction trinkets, like maybe the one of Vashj? At this point, I'd give my entire stack of DKP for a Fetish of the Sand Reaver =P
I dont use any threat reduction trinkets, and to be honest i really dont need any, our MT is exceptional at threat generation, which he needs to be because our best warlock and rogue are always pushing him to do more even after vanish or soulshatter.
Odis (our MT) pushes about 900-1100 tps on most fights, sometimes more, I couldn't say how he does it.
EDIT: one other thing that came to mind, fearie fire and CoR are always on the boss.
Yeah, I like it. Is the format output in such a fashion I can text-to-column it with those ^ values? I haven't finished my round of tests, but what's a good way to view that info?
quick edit: How is it incrementing upwards from the original value? Is MH speed jumping like:
AP 1292 to 1300 to 1400 to 1500? And each by various incremented values of swingspeed?
I put those ^ in there so in excel, you can choose the first column, do "text to columns" from the data menu, choose "delimited" as the option, and then use the "other" box and put the ^ in there.
here's the incrementing part of the program:
Do While MHWSpeed < FinishMHspd + 1
Do While OHWspeed < FinishOHspd + 1
Do While Crit < FinishCrit +.001
Do While HitBonus < FinishHit +.001
Do While AP < FinishAP + 1
AttackSimulation
AP = AP + 100
Loop
AP = StartAP
HitBonus = HitBonus + 0.0316
Loop
HitBonus = StartHit
Crit = Crit + 0.0225
Loop
Crit = StartCrit
ohspdpercent = 200 / OHWspeed
OHWspeed = OHWSpeed + 200
OHAvg = round(OHAvg * (1+ohspdpercent),1)
Loop
OHWspeed = OHStartSpeed
OHAvg = OHStartAvg
mhspdpercent = 200 / MHWspeed
MHWspeed = MHWSpeed + 200
MHAvg = round(MHAvg * (1+mhspdpercent),1)
Loop
So, AP increases by 100 (it doesn't find an "even" 100 first, if you start with 1292, the next step will be 1392), hitbonus increases by 3.1%, crit increases by 2.25%, and weapon speeds increment by 0.2 second delays.
The reason I chose the AP, Crit, and Hit values that I did is because those are all equivalent in terms of item budget. So, if the item budget is correct, they should all produce the same DPS increase. (hahahahaha!) ;-)
But, to go along with my earlier warning, this sim is under reporting dps (18% to 20% in my tests). Substantially. I can explain about 3% of it because OH Windfury damage isn't being calculated correctly - I simply need to redo those formulas now that I know how this patch changed them.
The rest of the difference (all? I think so, but maybe there are yet more unexplained factors) is due to the fact that flurry, in game, is active way more than the tooltip indicates it should be, even after taking a liberal interpretation of the tooltip.
For this reason, with more white hits happening than the simulator would currently indicate, this simulator probably does, as many people have guessed, undervalue the relative contribution of +hit gear.
The reason I chose the AP, Crit, and Hit values that I did is because those are all equivalent in terms of item budget. So, if the item budget is correct, they should all produce the same DPS increase. (hahahahaha!) ;-)
But, to go along with my earlier warning, this sim is under reporting dps (18% to 20% in my tests). Substantially. I can explain about 3% of it because OH Windfury damage isn't being calculated correctly - I simply need to redo those formulas now that I know how this patch changed them.
The rest of the difference (all? I think so, but maybe there are yet more unexplained factors) is due to the fact that flurry, in game, is active way more than the tooltip indicates it should be, even after taking a liberal interpretation of the tooltip.
For this reason, with more white hits happening than the simulator would currently indicate, this simulator probably does, as many people have guessed, undervalue the relative contribution of +hit gear.
+hit can't have the same value as let say AP. what ever insane amount of AP you have, it increase your dmg. But +hit it have a cap of effiency.
So to someone who lack in +hit, +hit worth a lot, but to someone who have enough +hit, it don't worth that much. Like water worth more than gold for someone thirsty in a desert. In fact, the value of +hit is proportional to the amount of +hit you need to reach the cap.
Ok results from Mag. I was not a clicker this time, but I was an idiot and had my riding crop on the entire fight instead of my Hourglass. Fuck you ItemRack.
I had battleshout, fel strength elixir and clefthoof strength food buffs. Got Blessing of Might about halfway through when I realized I hadn't gotten it at the start.
The two rogues at the top were in my group, as was Persis (warrior) and Datsama (druid) who were tanking and cube clicking. All the melee (minus tanks) were able to be purely on mag tonight and had all ranged and tanks on cube duty.
I note that my white dmg glancing rate is much lower this week even with the same gear (including my awesome green OH), Windfury crits were much lower than SS and white hits.
I've been following this thread for awhile now, and I really appreciate all the work that you guys are doing. Very enlightening with the Hit vs. Crit. vs AP discussion and has helped alot in my gear choices.
A little background, the guild I am part of is currently raiding SSC with everything down sans Vashj, and TK with Void reaver down, working on Solarion and Al'ar. My issue is that I was recruited a week after 2.1 came out because of their old enhancement shaman leaving. Looking at the damage meters to the pertaining fights that stigmata left us with, I feel like my DPS is on par, but I am getting alot of shit from the old enhancement's friends, saying he competed on meters and I don't.
As I am still on the evaluation period, I feel like I might lose my opportunity to be in this guild, as they are the best on the server, and I don't want to transfer again. I have pointed others to this thread and am just becoming more and more pessimistic with my chances of getting these guys to understand how severe the 2.1 nerf was.
I feel like I am running out of options, and am gonna go ahead and post here, and see if anyone has any advice, etc. to throw me.
Well, the truth, there not much about doing dps as an enhancement shaman, so there are some options:
a) they miss their old mate, you are the new boy in a foreign world, that's all
b) you fail at putting totems right, as a enhancer should do
c) maybe they just look at old and new damage stats, seeing that all their dps is increasing from the reviewed items, while your dps stays allmost the same due to the windfury change
Darkanull, I'll try to help you out though you're quite a bit farther than we are so I wouldn't really presume to give advice unless you asked.
I think you'll see much better results with the Gladiator's Cleaver offhand than the FEB. FEB is just too fast.
You should be able to pick up a Totem of the Astral Winds in Heroic MT pretty easily--highly farmable. That might give you a small dps boost.
I think Chest of Connivery (Nightbane) is quite a bit better than Salvagers. Bladed Shoulderpads (Chess) are better than T4. (I'm assuming you have easy access to everything in Kara whenever you want it.)
I think the abacus of violent odds is probably not that good of a trinket--replace it with hourglass of the unraveller.
I think you can upgrade your gloves to Felfury (crafted, easy) or Dextrous Manipulation (Attumen).
If you can post some of your recent logs, we can see about critiquing your ability selection and such, and probably learn a thing or two for ourselves.
Yeah, my gear is on par with his, even better in some areas (weapons, trinkets). All the questioning has made me look at my toon and gear even more, and I'm trying to pick out something I'm doing wrong, but I can't find it.
Darkanull, I'll try to help you out though you're quite a bit farther than we are so I wouldn't really presume to give advice unless you asked.
I think you'll see much better results with the Gladiator's Cleaver offhand than the FEB. FEB is just too fast.
You should be able to pick up a Totem of the Astral Winds in Heroic MT pretty easily--highly farmable. That might give you a small dps boost.
I think Chest of Connivery (Nightbane) is quite a bit better than Salvagers. Bladed Shoulderpads (Chess) are better than T4. (I'm assuming you have easy access to everything in Kara whenever you want it.)
I think the abacus of violent odds is probably not that good of a trinket--replace it with hourglass of the unraveller.
I think you can upgrade your gloves to Felfury (crafted, easy) or Dextrous Manipulation (Attumen).
If you can post some of your recent logs, we can see about critiquing your ability selection and such, and probably learn a thing or two for ourselves.
I'm saving the arena points for the glad's cleaver right now, the FEB is just a placekeeper until I can get that out. Totem of the astral winds hates me and won't drop.
I'm gonna disagree with you on shoulder/glove selection though. I wear t4 over felfury (I have a pair) because of the hit rating, and the shoulders I feel slightly erk out bladed shoulderguards when you count the 2pc bonus. As far as abacus is concerned, I want the trinket off the last boss in heroic BF, the one with the hit rating, and Use: reduce enemy armor by 600 or so, but again, bad luck with that.
I'll work on getting some meters up when I get a chance, we just killed hydross (I was sitting) and they are clearing up to Leo right now, so hopefully I'll be able to post morogrim or lurker meters. Thanks for the replies!
+hit can't have the same value as let say AP. what ever insane amount of AP you have, it increase your dmg. But +hit it have a cap of effiency.
So to someone who lack in +hit, +hit worth a lot, but to someone who have enough +hit, it don't worth that much. Like water worth more than gold for someone thirsty in a desert. In fact, the value of +hit is proportional to the amount of +hit you need to reach the cap.
Right, I just meant equal value in terms of creating an item, in which case:
1 hit rating = 1 crit rating = 2 AP
for the designers' item budget. I think almost everyone agrees at this point that str/AP is the most effective use of item budget (unless you have really really low hit or crit, per your water -> gold analogy). The more interesting question that is left currently is that of crit versus hit.
My WWS for tonight reported less than 25% glancing blows. I don't think there's anything different for Shamans than for any other class in that department.
The reason for that is that WWS lists dodges and parries under "missed". If you click on Windfury Attack you will see that you had indeed no misses but 26 dodges and 1 parry which accounts for your 6.1% "missed".
Click the skill to get a breakdown of miss/dodge/parry.
Another afternoon, more boredom time after the daily gold questing. So figured I'd go for yet another round with my old friend the Servant. This time I moved there, clicked off my active Windfury buffs, and logged out. Upon login, I cast Windfury anew and waited for a few minutes, then rebuffed Windfury and started the test.
While the rates were lower than my first test, they are not close to the 5% dip a Thundering Strikes bug would indicate. Ideally I'd like to run a few more to conclusively prove that this very attempt wasn't a lucky fluke, but we will see how I proceed. Tempted to test out the other obvious possibilities I outlined earlier. Mainly in the hope of hitting my head on the nail quickly, thus saving time from running each variable through multiple sessions. Might make another run tomorrow, so will see then.
Edit:
Ok, so it's a slow day...I move to Blasted Lands, remove active WF buffs, logout. Log in, buff WF and wait until they expire. I rebuff and start another run.
I would suggest 30 minutes is not a big enough sample.
Mine was just under an hour and that too doesn't represent a good enoguh sample, after 30 min my crit was all over the place, it sort of came back in line towards the end but it was still far from what would be expected.
As for the WF cast on zone etc, interesting theory, whether or not it is correct is another thing.
<nod> As I said, ideally I need more than a single 30 min sample. Right now I'm basically running a initial check on each possibility in case anything jumps out at me. I'm wary about gathering samples larger than ~30 minutes at a go just because we don't know what (if anything) causes Windfury to disregard Thundering Strikes. As far as crit being all over the place, my normal attacks have so far stayed close to the expected mark, all 3 tests so far ending up at the 30-31% mark. Stormstrike is jumpy, due to the small amount of of data. I have the added "benefit" of having really old weapons. Got them made before Mongoose was an option (and yes, I should have used Crusader MH, but I did some theorycrafting on it back when I was deciding. It must have been late at night or I fudged the calculations. Either way, dual Potency it is. Until I get a new weapon)
And yes, it's just a theory. Trying to prove or disprove it is what I'm slowly working towards. If anyone has spare time, I'd love additional data, as long as people make sure to note which conditions apply to the testing, i.e rebuffing after fading, rebuff while active etc. And make sure to log in just before starting so zoning can be taken out of the equation.
Last edited by Timmervargen : 06/06/07 at 12:59 PM.
Reason: Clarification
FYI, I've posted the flurry problem as it's own thread, since presumably dps warriors have been dealing with this longer than we have, and they might have "the answer".
Hello everyone. Long time lurker first time poster. I have been following this thread since the beginning and now i am ready to chime in with my specific itemization questions. I may have missed a page or two, so if my question is answered somewhere else in this thread please point me to that post.
I am raiding as enhance in a guild that has Karazhan on farm and is just beginning 25 man content. My shaman is new as of TBC, so i immediatly made some silly mistakes before i started reading up on how the class works. Mainly i got the 2 gladiator fists, the offhand of which is now too fast to be useful and the mainhand is locked into mainhand and so cannot be offhanded with Fool's Bane or the Decapitator main hand. I am working on the 2.6 speed gladiator axe for my off hand but it is a few weeks away. I am reading everything i can find and trying to figure out the optimal gear configuration out of what is available to me.
I am now and have been my guilds top DPSer in Karazhan, but this is mainly due to having gladiator weapons when most people were using blues. I also have managed to pick up almost every piece of epic mail from Kara, with only my t4 helmet and ripflayer leggings left to go. I have not run a test of my exact dps.
So, on to my questions:
1) I have been aiming for gear that has crit rating on it rather than agility as i have heard that you get more bang for your buck out of crit rating due to it costing less in the item budget. Can anyone confirm this?
2) Currently my base stats are 1306 ap, 150 hit rating, and 24.44% crit. is 17.92% hit good? Too much or too little? Would i get more dps out of dropping my hourglass or bloodlust broach for romulo's poison vial or some such?
3) As i draw closer to upgrading my helmet and legs i am worrying about losing the 35 hit rating from the desolation 2 set. I am wondering if its really an upgrade.
4) I am an orc, so i have that extra 5 weapon skill on axes. Sooner or later a Decapitator is going to drop for my raid and i am wondering if it is worth taking over the gladiator's right ripper. The Decapitator has 3 more top end damage, .8 more dps, 13 more crit rating, 9 less hit, 28 less ap, 21 less stam, and an on use ability that i assume adds no significant dps. It looks like the ripper wins, but is the 5 axe skill enough to tip the scales in favor of the decapitator?
5) I have heard/seen some discussion on using the level 60 hwl 2.9 axe in the off hand over a level 70 weapon. Has anyone done conclusive tests on this? How does it compare to the gladiator 2.6, and to a blue 2.6?
6) What is the definitive word on leather? I have been comparing some pieces of loot and other than the armor, which doesn't matter much, it seems that non-agil leather simply has better stats due to not having points wasted on int. I am specifically looking at the Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless vs Beastmaw pauldrons and t4 shoulders, Rapscallion Boots vs Ferocious Swift-Kickers, and Malefic Mask of Shadows vs Maulgar's Warhelm and t4 helm.
7) Is it just me, or does all the mp5 and int on our t4 make it not worth wearing over misc epics?
Data is from SSC, WF was always recast before it faded (and recast before first mob to keep it same). Definately fits with thundering not affecting WF or SS, the size of differnce in the (miss/dodge/parry) section between windfury and stormstrike worries me though. Will get data from TK/Hyjal/BT later in the week and add it in, should give a decent sample size then.
If the first stormstrike attack misses/is parried/dodged, the second one never goes off. Thus it will always have a lower miss/dodge/parry rate than other attacks. It's a long standing bug.
I logged my adventures last night, which was a round of heroics. It's a huge mishmash of parameters, so not something I would base conclusions on. That being said, it came out with 31% normal crits, 27% Windfury and 28% Stormstrike. Client side parsing.
Khlysti - Thank you! There is certainly something fishy going on with Thundering Strikes, going to wander off to Blasted to rerun a 30 min sample or two of my second experiment. I've got a hunch, now to test if I'm whistling in the dark or not.
And on a closing note, oh yay! I've been waiting for that Frostbrand fix for ages <.< >.>
Last edited by Timmervargen : 06/07/07 at 7:34 AM.
Reason: typo gnomes
06/05/07, 5:40 PM
Fuck you ItemRack.
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