Hello. I'm curious if this is a viable trinket for us dual wield shamans:
Prism of Inner Calm
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70
Equip: Reduces the threat from your harmful critical strikes.
The info I could gather is that this trinket reduces 54 threat from every physical crit and 216 form every spell crit. We don't really like things that does not scale with gear, do we?
Hello. I'm curious if this is a viable trinket for us dual wield shamans:
Prism of Inner Calm
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70
Equip: Reduces the threat from your harmful critical strikes.
The info I could gather is that this trinket reduces 54 threat from every physical crit and 216 form every spell crit. We don't really like things that does not scale with gear, do we?
Do a search for that trinket on this forum. There was some discussion of it earlier in May. If I recall the math correctly it was decided that it reduces threat by something like 1200 a minute. And yes while things that scale with gear would be nice, Blizzard has decided that they are too nice for the most part and we'll likely not see them anymore.
Hello. I'm curious if this is a viable trinket for us dual wield shamans:
Prism of Inner Calm
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70
Equip: Reduces the threat from your harmful critical strikes.
The info I could gather is that this trinket reduces 54 threat from every physical crit and 216 form every spell crit. We don't really like things that does not scale with gear, do we?
I would suggest that you should not need to use this trinket, but if your tanks dont put out enough threat then something like this would help a little, -54 threat per crit. for me over a 10 minute fight it would reduce my threat by about 20k (very rough maths used for this)
20k threat is nothing imo especially as this is an end value, 5 minutes into the fight its only 10k.
-54 threat on a double 2k WF proc which causes about 4k threat. (again very rough estimation)
The best solution to any threat problems is tell your tank to theorycraft exactly how he can maximise his threat gen without sacrificing mitigation.
Hello. I'm curious if this is a viable trinket for us dual wield shamans:
Prism of Inner Calm
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70
Equip: Reduces the threat from your harmful critical strikes.
The info I could gather is that this trinket reduces 54 threat from every physical crit and 216 form every spell crit. We don't really like things that does not scale with gear, do we?
Thanks for the fast replies. Though it's better than Timelapse shard, it's still not good enough. I don't see anybody who could use this trinket. I hope it gets buffed later...
I just did some math on my Tuesday Mag kill and the trinket would work out to be a 2.7% threat reduction for me, roughly 7,000 threat reduced off of over 4k melee dmg.
Changing topics - the new Armory page is pretty interesting. It now has a button when you mouse over your gear to "suggest upgrades". I tried it out and found they actually do suggest leather items for Enhance shaman. Its fairly well done, as you mouse over the suggested items the tooltip will show you the gain/loss in each stat. From first glance the suggested upgrades of 2 slots, it looks like the Armory is emphasizing AP and Crit for my items. However I'm not sure if its correctly counting Agility as providing Crit.
Changing topics - the new Armory page is pretty interesting. It now has a button when you mouse over your gear to "suggest upgrades". I tried it out and found they actually do suggest leather items for Enhance shaman. Its fairly well done, as you mouse over the suggested items the tooltip will show you the gain/loss in each stat. From first glance the suggested upgrades of 2 slots, it looks like the Armory is emphasizing AP and Crit for my items. However I'm not sure if its correctly counting Agility as providing Crit.
I wouldn't put too much stock in the armory's recommendations. When I looked for cloth DPS glove upgrades, the 7th thing on the list had +54 healing on it, for example. I believe the upgrade algorithm just looks for "items with stats like yours" and computes the relevance from that. Sure those cloth gloves didn't have +damage on it, but they had stam, int, and sockets. Close enough!
In all seriousness though, it does a great job of listing all upgrades you'd actually consider. It's just that a few suggestions should be outright ignored.
When I looked for cloth DPS glove upgrades, the 7th thing on the list had +54 healing on it, for example.
In all seriousness though, it does a great job of listing all upgrades you'd actually consider. It's just that a few suggestions should be outright ignored.
Yah I saw the same thing for upgrades to the bracers off Attumen, the last 2 items were healing bracers. To be fair to Blizzard though, the "relevancy" of those items was at 0, so they'd already marked at it as "not quite the same thing". I think they just try to fill the page up completely with items rather than just saying "hmm slim pickins" and showing only 1 or 2 items.
As as side note, I picked up a Hammer of the Naaru this week and I'm working on getting a gear set up of around 30% crit to see if it's worthwhile for PVE. I'm pretty sure the damage is about the same as my normal output (pretty hard to tell since I haven't parsed a boss fight yet), but the arena is going to be lots more fun this week than it was last week.
As as side note, I picked up a Hammer of the Naaru this week and I'm working on getting a gear set up of around 30% crit to see if it's worthwhile for PVE. I'm pretty sure the damage is about the same as my normal output (pretty hard to tell since I haven't parsed a boss fight yet), but the arena is going to be lots more fun this week than it was last week.
Forgive me for asking; I'm sure you've played an enhancement shaman much more than I have. But I thought with sufficient gear, dual wielding almost always generated more damage than two handed because it got +150% of attack power (100% for mainhand and 50% for offhand), versus +100% for a 2h weapon. I almost never see an enhancement shaman with a 2h weapon. Why do you think the damage output will be the same? All Windfury hits are on the mainhand? Less dependence on +hit?
It can't be viable, I was using http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30316 Devastation on the Kael fight, and even with the 20% haste from the weapon and Flurry up the damage was still way to patchy, on a crit i would do 2-3k White, and 2 x 4k WF, but then the next 3 swings would hit for about 800-1200 or something liek that.
It was an interesting weapon for wow nice WF, but its just not viable for pve, and this weapon has 744 top end, 3.9 speed, 159dps, were not going to be seeing a weapon like that for a long long time.
Changing topics - the new Armory page is pretty interesting. It now has a button when you mouse over your gear to "suggest upgrades". I tried it out and found they actually do suggest leather items for Enhance shaman. Its fairly well done, as you mouse over the suggested items the tooltip will show you the gain/loss in each stat. From first glance the suggested upgrades of 2 slots, it looks like the Armory is emphasizing AP and Crit for my items. However I'm not sure if its correctly counting Agility as providing Crit.
It's just funny those upgrade are suggested by the same people who screwed the itemization for shaman...
But on otherside, if that tool begin to suggest leather over mail, maybe the developer will FINALLY realise something about items and shaman.
Add to that the value of shamanistic rage and frequency of unleashed rage procs. Moogle will no doubt find that he does more damage with his DW rig, but the testing will be worthwhile and interesting to see, particularly if he's able to swap +crit gear for his +hit gear significantly. Most of the theory crafting around 1h vs. DW weapons assumes the same base stats. 30-35% crit rate instead of a +250 hit rate requirement might even things up a bit.
I'm sure it'll be entertaining when you do 6-10k dmg after turning on autoattack right after a pull.
That already happened. The results were predictable.
Pretty much what Juice said for the rest of it, I don't expect to find it to be a truly 'better' option purely on the basis of mana returned from SR, but given the absurd numbers seen in the paladin ret thread of late I think I should be able to get some pretty good results. My bigger concern is keeping UR up consistently using a slow weapon, which means I'll have to post a crit number that might be quite a bit higher than what you'd normally see on a shaman. A lot of it will just depend on how things shake out for drops. It'll probably take me another 2 months to get a good set for it with my casual playtime.
I almost never see an enhancement shaman with a 2h weapon. Why do you think the damage output will be the same?
The 2H will cause Big Numbers, but hit less often - over time the theory would be that it would do the same damage is DWing hitting for smaller, more manageable numbers. You don't see many shaman using a 2H in PvE because the spike damage is insane and completely uncontrollable. A series of White Crit + 2 WF Crits with a big 2H weapon could generate 5 digit threat in an instant.
The 2H will cause Big Numbers, but hit less often - over time the theory would be that it would do the same damage is DWing hitting for smaller, more manageable numbers. You don't see many shaman using a 2H in PvE because the spike damage is insane and completely uncontrollable. A series of White Crit + 2 WF Crits with a big 2H weapon could generate 5 digit threat in an instant.
I understand early spike damage is a problem with two handed as well. But my argument for dual wield over two handed was that dual wielding should theoretically deal more damage, because it scales better with +attack power (150% versus 100%). I'll look into armory profiles of some posters here to see if I can get solid numbers on this.
I understand early spike damage is a problem with two handed as well. But my argument for dual wield over two handed was that dual wielding should theoretically deal more damage, because it scales better with +attack power (150% versus 100%). I'll look into armory profiles of some posters here to see if I can get solid numbers on this.
Your argument is flawed because of the higher base miss chance that dual wielding incurs. A two handed weapon requires only 8.64% hit to never miss against 73s while DWing requires at least 26% hit from the latest suggested hit caps, which means that in order to apply all 150% of your AP you're required to build up significant amounts of +hit. That is item budget that can be spent on more AP or crit if you're using a two handed weapon, which is why you see Arms warriors with AP and crit values well above those of fury warriors. In the case of playing a shaman, you get 6% extra hit in the enhancement tree and another 3% in resto which pretty much everyone takes anyway so it's a very good start towards leveling the playing field and SR is another nudge in that direction since it heavily favors fast weapons. Dual wield has a higher damage potential, but requires much better gear to decisively overtake two handed weapons. The difference isn't as drastic as you might suggest, though it is in favor of dual wielding since +hit is very cheap in the item budget.
Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 06/07/07 at 10:39 AM.
Your argument is flawed because of the higher base miss chance that dual wielding incurs.
That's what I was getting at when I previous asked:
Originally Posted by tedv
Why do you think the damage output will be the same? All Windfury hits are on the mainhand? Less dependence on +hit?
I understand that going 2h lets you filter more points from +hit into +attack/crit talents even though dual wield is better in the extreme gear case. But I've never seen any serious theorycrafting on what the breakeven point is. I just assumed that because the extreme case is dual wield and everyone currently uses dual wield, the 2h -> dual breakeven point was well below even average gear.
Before I run through these numbers, did I just miss the previous theorycrafting discussion on this subject? Search turned up nothing.
Before I run through these numbers, did I just miss the previous theorycrafting discussion on this subject? Search turned up nothing.
I have no doubts the break point on it is pretty low due to the 'free' 6% hit when DWing; it's almost certainly lower than the break point for Warriors. It'll be a little tricky to parse since the damage is extremely streaky, but I think a fight like Attumen will be a pretty good test for it (especially if I can con the rest of the DPS in to slacking). More or less nobody's ever been dumb/bored enough to try and buck dual wield since SR is so powerful. However, I now have a big stick with a rock that is the size of a gnome on the end of it that compels me to do strange things... like try to use it.
You would not be able to raid as a 2 hander shaman, UR would not be up and so why any half decent raid would want you there if you cant perform your primary group buffer role?
I would estimate the dmg between my current weapons, and the best 2 hander available in the game at present would come out 3:2, over any course of a fight.
With a 2 hander and no hit gems i could theoretically get to 45% crit and about 3.5k ap raid buffed, even with this the damage, regardless of how spikey, would not get close to my consitant hard hitting dw damage.
If and when i pick up a 130 dps 2 hander i will give this a go, but going off purely Kael tries when i tried using the 2 hander it is not even close to enough damage.
My Synced Recap with a ranged Mage during several SSC encounters differs greatly with a WWS logged report at 1000 yard range (modified in config.wtf). Is anyone having this same problem?
The armory upgrade feature doesn't take account for the gems and you don't know how it's weighting each item. In my opinion it should at least complete the item with a basic mediocre gem like lootzor could, but I can imagine how difficult that would be and more cause for concern.
I would suggest that you should not need to use this trinket, but if your tanks dont put out enough threat then something like this would help a little, -54 threat per crit. for me over a 10 minute fight it would reduce my threat by about 20k (very rough maths used for this)
20k threat is nothing imo especially as this is an end value, 5 minutes into the fight its only 10k.
-54 threat on a double 2k WF proc which causes about 4k threat. (again very rough estimation)
The best solution to any threat problems is tell your tank to theorycraft exactly how he can maximise his threat gen without sacrificing mitigation.
My tests showed a -50 threat reduction per hit while testing. I believe there is something going on with spirit weapons and the trinket. Since it was just brought in at 2.1 where all the items got fixed, I'm hoping it's a small oversight which will be fixed.
06/07/07, 6:19 AM
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