Igniter

No it was each crit. Although if it was 50 or 54 agro each hit including crits the trinket would be worthwhile...

 

Timmervargen

Too hot to think today, so no daily 30 minute sample. I did however log our SSC raid last night, most of it. I parsed it, trash and all, and sure enough, SS and WF crit rates were 4-5% lower than auto attack. Only parameter that I can claim for certain applied was WF never fading, and being constantly rebuffed. Sadly we wiped a few times, and there was some zoning involved so the sample isn't truly valid.

More tests coming tomorrow. Will try and grab that Flurry sample for Disquette as well, if I remember.

 

Igniter

Ashtongue Talisman of Vision
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Classes: Shaman
Requires Ashtongue Deathsworn - Exalted
Equip: Lesser Healing Wave has a 10% chance to grant 110 mana, Lightning Bolt has a 15% chance to grant up to 110 mana, and Stormstrike has a 50% chance to grant up to 275 attack power for 10 sec.

Now I can't be the only one drooling over this oh so sexy looking trinket. Is anyone close? I'd assume Stigmata will be the first regular here to get it. (did a search and didn't see it REALLY mentioned, I think it will have short hidden CD, seems too good)

 

mek

It's not that great. 50% to do 275 is basically 50% uptime, so a passive 137.5 AP. Compared to Bloodlust Brooch, which is a passive 72 that adds 278 for 20/120... 72+46.3=118.3ap. So it's actually only a 19 ap bonus over Bloodlust Brooch, and has the added downside of being less controllable; you can guarantee that the +278ap of the Brooch occurs during SR, boosting its output.

So actually... it's pretty damn bad for where it is in the game... barely an upgrade over a badge trinket. Sigh.

edit: the other buffs are similarly weak. LHW bonus translates to 36.6mp5 *IF* you are non-stop chaincasting LHW with zero latency, which is a very very big if. In fact, LHW is probably the least-used heal in the resto shaman's arsenal, Healing Way and Chain Heal are too powerful.... thus, it's terrible.

The ele trinket is slightly better, since LB is a majority of their casts, but the SSC shaman trinket is generally better and more versatile, and much easier to get.

Most of the Ashtongue Talismans are similarly bad, as in, comparable to blue or epic trinkets found elsewhere. If they have hidden cooldowns, they're completely useless.

 

Igniter

Yeah, it requires some luck of course, but at least it is a slight upgrade :p I'd probably end up using it WITH brooch, or dragonspine if it ever drops again. Oh, and it can always get buffed, at least hopefully.

 

Skiace

it's a 50% proc off SS, which is on a 10s cooldown already. why would they put a hidden cooldown on it when they could just adjust the procrate to provide the desired average up-time?

 

panny

Slightly better if each SS attack (MH and OH) each get a chance to trigger the bonus, but I also much prefer controllable trinkets.

 

mek

Yeah, controllable trinkets are massively better on any non-static fights where you're dealing with dps windows. (which is virtually every fight nowadays...)

 

Stigmata

We had out first night of BT raiding last night (due to quest bugs and people not getting in last week =/) and rep gain is pretty fast.

We only cleared the Naj'entus and Supremus and the trash to Akama. and my ashtongue rep is at 3792/6000 so I would imagine a full clear yields around 8k rep (wild guess) maybe more.

One thing that was most pleasing was the epic gem drop rate, we have decided not to hand any out until we start getting T6, since we see it as a waste to use it on lesser gear. I think we probably have around 20 gems so far and 3 or 4 trash epics.

It seems to me Blizzard have taken note of the complaints about SSC/TK trash and made the BT trash almost enjoyable.

We also had this drop http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32591 and so far i have been unable to find any info about how good/bad this is, most people in the raid immediately associated this with a pvp item, but given that on a warrior in pvp -175 armor is nothing when they have 15-20k.

If anyone finds/see's any info on this please post here or pm, because atm I am unsure of the value and whether it would be worthwhile using it. (I didnt get it btw, went to one of our ferals)

I did pick up some new gloves from Naj'entus http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32234 and they reduce my swing time by 0.09 on MH/OH, hopefully we will see more passive haste items.

 

Patrik

I personally find -armor stat very powerful, due to exponential nature of armor. -175armor on sunder-ed/cor-ed/faeriefire-d mob can bring a lot bonus damage. That's also a reason why I'm not super happy about http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30450 being rogue only item (it procs as often as Dragonspine trophy after last patch).

Concerning haste rating, I'm not really sure us shamans and haste go that well together. We all read Disquettes results in this thread - slower weapons mean more dps.

 

Viator

I read it that haste scales well IF you have two slow weapons and IF they're roughly the same speed. My offhand's not eating any more procs if they're both sped up to 1.8 instead of 2.6 and they're not weeny WF hits like wielding a 1.6 offhand.

Mages have a set time that they want you to ask for food, and that time is pull #4 of the night. You may notice them putting a little snack table down before the raid, that's them cooking the food for you to demand on pull 4. --Nork

 

Igniter

With my mongoose, flurry, and T3 mace proc (no CD and often up) my MH speed is 1.66'ish, dragonspine would be great for lowering that below 1.5

 

Stigmata

Sorry for my ignorance, but given that 58%of my damage is from white hits, why isnt EVERY possible but of haste gear/procs good for me and shaman kind..

I'm not a number cruncher, but i do know what and where my dmaage comes from and im pretty sure tthat more white dmg = more dps for me.

Why is a WF CD worse than white hitting/crinting for as much a problem?

 

• Relwin

Haste is like hit to a certain extent. In that it's always good to have around but there are things that benefit you more that you could exchange it for. Haste won't do squat for your WFs while AP and crit will. But yeah, more white DPS is still more overall DPS.

This bear is cooler than you.

 

Ilmatar

This is my take on haste, and why I think that it is a very important thing to go for:

Our largest source of damage is white damage. Haste increases white damage. Our second biggest source of damage is Windfury. Windfury is an odd beast, but our time in combat is pretty much divided into two sections: Windfury cooldown combat, and trying to proc windfury combat. Faster swinging means less time spent trying to proc Windfury. The first swing you come out of cooldown, you have some % chance (it's not 20% I think they proved somewhere) to proc windfury. If you don't proc it, your next swing tries, etc, etc. It is my theory that as your haste effects increase, your white damage will increase, and your windfury damage will become more consistent, because you are reducing the time you spend out of Windfury cooldown. This assumes that you are using two weapons which are similar in speed (which you should be using slow/slow anyway), and damage.

This is why I think that Mongoose is the enchant of choice. When mongoose proc's for the duration of the proc, you will be flurried, SR will be up and you will _probably_ spend less time in non-windfury-CD combat. We like to say, "Well i have 24% crit so ...theory..." but in practice it just does not work this way...but rarely. You can see it even in the Flurry testing combat logs that were posted in the other thread. What mongoose does is re-enforce, for the duration of it's proc, the things that we want. We want to be Flurried, we want to have SR up, and we want as many windfury procs as possible, because, while, yes haste gives your off-hand a faster chance to proc windfury, it also gives your main hand faster chances to proc windfury. Stormstrike is also very useful for smoothing-out non-WF cooldown time, because, if executed in non-WF cooldown time, it gives you two chances to proc WF. Stormstrike, however, has a 10s cooldown. If you proc WF on SS, you go 2-3 ideal WF proc cycles before another SS opportunity.

I have been known to be entirely full of it. So take that for what you will.

 

Patrik

Hey, cool down Stigmata, all I wanted to do was to discuss this matter with you guys and come to a general consensus
What you say, Ilmatar, sounds absolutely reasonable to me. However I'm just working with what Disquettes research has shown.

From this, haste seems like something we wouldn't want to have. Nonetheless after attacking mobs in blasted lands for half of afternoon, I periodically got better results with DST over Tsunami Talisman. So I'm getting slightly confused Could damage increase of slower weapons have something to do with their bigger max damage instead?

 

Skiace

in the post you quoted, i believe "5% OH speed increase" means a 5% slower weapon with unchanged dps, so the weapon attacks slower but hits harder. haste changes auto attack speed without changing the damage range, so that post does not pertain to haste.

 

Igniter

I could see -armor and haste going very very well together, especially if you're wanting to focus on your white damage. The best thing about x2 mongoose is not having to worry about crit rating ever again.

 

Natali3

I'm still trying to figure out what to do with haste. With less of my damage % coming from windfury, not sure just how hard to push it.

Picked up a Ring of Devastation, (The thing that shocked me is that the ring isn't unique), in Black Temple at the start of the week and I still have Dragonspine coupled with Dual Mongoose on two 2.6 speed weapons. Although I don't have the increased flurry set bonus from Cataclysm as yet.

I think both my weapons currently drop to 1.44 speed when flurry/mongoose/spine are all up at once, this is with the ring.

I hope to run some numbers when the weekend is over, and hopefully glean some information from it.

Edit: As an added note, this thread has been extremely interesting and informative to read. So many thanks to everyone, especially those who put considerable time and effort into running numbers and simulations for those of us who aren't as mathematically skilled in this area.

 

thorin5

1.35 to be precise. Guildie of mine(Pwnanza @ Garona) has that setup so after reading this I went out and did a little testing to see just how stupidly fast he could get that thing going. I had to scramble to grab a screenshot of it because the hammer proc was about to fade, otherwise I would've hit Heroism just for fun. But without blowing cooldowns, dropping a 2.7 speed weapon down to 1.35 is amazing.(offhand is a Runic Hammer, if you care)

 

Patrik

Yes, I've mentioned that as one of possible explanations. However my concern is to not loose 2% of total dps from wf procs by gaining 1% dps with haste. But one breaking point seems to be 1.5 attack speed and once your under it it shouldn't really matter I guess.

 

Tornhoof

I'm still tracking down where my model is different from the simulation models here:

For testing:
I changed flurry to a different calculation to compensate, that flurry can proc from wf and SS but does not use charges.

Meaning:
flurryuptime := (1 - noncrit^3) + crit/100*(2*0.18 + 1/20*ws1/1.1 + 1/20*ws2/1.1);

basically I add a static WF proc rate of 18%*2*critrate to the flurryuptime percentage.
Additionally I do the same for the statically flurried (/1.1) weapons for SS too (Weaponspeed is important here, since SS has a cooldown of 10s).

This is not 100% correct, but should do for comparison for now.

Additionally I changed my WF model to this:
wfnerf := 0.1 + ((0.2 - 0.1) / (2.8 - 1.0)) * (min(avgspeed/avghit,2.8) - 1.0);

I divide by the avghit rate now to compensate that with more +hit we should lose more WFs just because we hit more often. Or rather the WF proc count should be constant, since the cooldown is constant.

If I use both modifications the previously calculated crit/hit comparison changes from 1.2 to:
Which means one Crit% is 1.39 times more useful than one Hit%, since crit is more important now due to the changes to flurry and hit is less important due to the changes from WF.


Additional notes, the flurry uptime with 43.4% crit and the flurry model above is 100%, as usual disregard the actual DPS value (no armor, a realistic value would be 80% of it) and disregard the Drake Fang Talisman.

 

Weazus

First time poster here, long time reader.

Now, with my gear, I was wondering if I should switch to the mace spec of BS instead of being axe which is what I currently am. I do have Black Planar Edge so do you guys think it would be worth the work to get the mace instead?

 

Stigmata

The haste proc is very nice, and its pretty much constantly on, it also has no internal cd.

 

Weazus

Ill take that as I should go mace spec >_>