See, I see it as Flame Shock: 377 + completely random amount... because there's no way that debuff isn't getting knocked off on a 25 man. (On a 10 man, you're probably right that you can expect the full damage, but then you may not have the scorch debuff and/or curse of elements). To each his own, I suppose
You raiding with like 4 shadow priests and 4 warlocks or something? Flame Shock lasts 12 seconds. It very easily stays on for the full duration.
I spent a while last night really looking at numbers, gems and set bonuses. (Disclaimer: If you're lacking in Stamina, you probably reach a different conclusion than I do).
I reached the conclusion that every single socket I have would be best filled by +8 strength. None of my existing (or near future) socket bonuses are compelling enough to justify going with any other gem. According to the stat weights that we've defined in this thread, 8 strength is just so much significantly more valuable than any of the hit, crit or agility options.
For the record, I use the following valuations:
str = 2.17
agi = 0.64
crit rating = 0.66
hit rating = 0.93
attck power = 1.00
The only time I might justify the use of any other gem is to meet the bare minimum required to activate a particular meta gem. I believe that we've established the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond to be the most effective meta gem, and it requires 2 yellow and 2 blue gems. This means that when you pass on 32 str you gain 12 agility, 3% crit damage, 8 str, 12 stam, 16 crit rating and a few skimpy socket bonuses, probably in the order of 6 crit rating. (ref: http://www.wowhead.com/?itemset=636)
Trying to compare these:
32 str vs 8 str, 12 agi, 22 crit rating, 12 stam, 3% crit damage
24 str vs 34 crit rating, 12 stam, 3% crit damage
(my weights suggest that 1 str is roughly 3.29 times better than 1 crit rating)
14 str vs. 12 stam + 3% crit damage.
Do we value +3% damage to crits and 12 stamina above 14 strength? I'm not really sure. Each of us has a seperate valuation of stamina, and it certainly depends on your current HP. Since T5 is so well equipped for Stamina, and the Dragonstrike / Gladiators both have stamina on them, I might value stamina less than a lot of other shaman.
Disregarding stamina, It's very hard for me to compare the 3% damage to crits to 14 strength. Any thoughts?
Using my WWS: 700 DPS, 90% of damage is melee with a 32% crit average.
700*0.9 = 630 (melee DPS)
(700*0.9)/1.32 = 477 (this is melee DPS if crits did 0 extra damage).
630-477 = 152 (melee DPS soley from crits)
152*1.03 = 157 (melee DPS after gem effect. If the gem affects full damage on a crit, not just bonus damage, that'll be 161)
It's roughly either a 5 or 11 DPS increase for my stats. My crit/AP are relatively low due to my focus on +hit, so if you have higher AP/crit, it should be slightly better for you. Seems to be worth more than 28 AP to me.
You raiding with like 4 shadow priests and 4 warlocks or something? Flame Shock lasts 12 seconds. It very easily stays on for the full duration.
Sorry, you're probably right... the debuff may stay on. I still have a hard time justifying knocking another debuff off though. (Usually raid with 2 shadow priests and 3-4 locks, BTW.)
Originally Posted by Azaranth
I reached the conclusion that every single socket I have would be best filled by +8 strength. None of my existing (or near future) socket bonuses are compelling enough to justify going with any other gem. According to the stat weights that we've defined in this thread, 8 strength is just so much significantly more valuable than any of the hit, crit or agility options.
That's not terribly surprising to me; I've been socketing nearly only with +8 Strength, the exception being when I can get a good DPS-oriented socket bonus by switching only 1 gem to a purple/orange (compare: Gronn-Stitched Girdle vs Midnight Legguards).
That's not terribly surprising to me; I've been socketing nearly only with +8 Strength, the exception being when I can get a good DPS-oriented socket bonus by switching only 1 gem to a purple/orange (compare: Gronn-Stitched Girdle vs Midnight Legguards).
I agree. I had a blue gem in my Midnight Legs too. However, as the ilevel on items gets higher, it seems that the socket bonuses get worse
Panny. I think it's been proven that you get 203% crits, not 206% crits. Using my own WWS numbers it looks like it's really only a 3-4dps increase for me. Does 30 ap have the same effect? Even if not, I suspect it's worthwhile when you factor in the stamina.
I agree. I had a blue gem in my Midnight Legs too. However, as the ilevel on items gets higher, it seems that the socket bonuses get worse
Panny. I think it's been proven that you get 203% crits, not 206% crits. Using my own WWS numbers it looks like it's really only a 3-4dps increase for me. Does 30 ap have the same effect? Even if not, I suspect it's worthwhile when you factor in the stamina.
Yeah, just couldn't be bothered looking up solid numbers. :P Don't forget the 12 agi is ~0.5% crit!
I don't think I've seen any posts on http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32654 in the thread yet. If I remember the math from rogues posted years ago, weapon damage is for feral druids and anyone with fast weapons ie dagger rogues. This used to be true, but with the addition of haste to armor, a decent amount of haste trinkets and weapons, flurry and 4 piece t5 flurry bonus, I'm not sure how this fits in any longer. I know there were some screenshots earlier in the thread showing how fast they got their MH attacks down to. One other draw to the trinket is the super short cooldown (60 seconds for 216 ap).
***This was my 30 second math, so please say if this is incorrect.
Crystalforged Trinket - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32654
216*(10/60) = 36 + xxx depending on your weapons. Doing very quick math it would add at least another 5dps. 60 sec, 2.7 speed weapon, so 22 attacks per minute x 7 dam = 155 dam/60 sec = 2.59dps (if 1dps=14ap) or roughly 36ap. Using 2 weapons close to the same speed = 70ap. So approximately 106ap total.
Could someone model this including some basic wf, ss and flurry numbers? I can't dig up any old math on enchant weapon: superior striking or the cenarion circle exalted ring.
Yeah, but it's the yellow gems that are least desirable. I guess 10ap / 5 crit is the best you can hope for with a yellow socket.
I'd almost be more inclined to use: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32640. I'll look at some numbers after this raid.
(Edit: FTR, I did factor in that 12 agi on the Relentless Skyfire.)
Yeah, but it's the yellow gems that are least desirable. I guess 10ap / 5 crit is the best you can hope for with a yellow socket.
I'd almost be more inclined to use: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32640. I'll look at some numbers after this raid.
(Edit: FTR, I did factor in that 12 agi on the Relentless Skyfire.)
You like blue better than yellow? With blue, you can get stam, but with yellow you get hit or crit. One increases your offensive stats, the other doesn't. Unless you're talking about easy to obtain purple gems that have good offensive stats?
I don't think I've seen any posts on http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32654 in the thread yet. If I remember the math from rogues posted years ago, weapon damage is for feral druids and anyone with fast weapons ie dagger rogues. This used to be true, but with the addition of haste to armor, a decent amount of haste trinkets and weapons, flurry and 4 piece t5 flurry bonus, I'm not sure how this fits in any longer. I know there were some screenshots earlier in the thread showing how fast they got their MH attacks down to. One other draw to the trinket is the super short cooldown (60 seconds for 216 ap).
***This was my 30 second math, so please say if this is incorrect.
Crystalforged Trinket - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32654
216*(10/60) = 36 + xxx depending on your weapons. Doing very quick math it would add at least another 5dps. 60 sec, 2.7 speed weapon, so 22 attacks per minute x 7 dam = 155 dam/60 sec = 2.59dps (if 1dps=14ap) or roughly 36ap. Using 2 weapons close to the same speed = 70ap. So approximately 106ap total.
Could someone model this including some basic wf, ss and flurry numbers? I can't dig up any old math on enchant weapon: superior striking or the cenarion circle exalted ring.
You shouldn't need to work out WF/SS/Flurry, since both trinket's passive effects increases damage linearly and would not affect your current values.
However, considering solely the passive effect, you don't get any of the usual benefits of AP, which means less mana back from Shamanistic Rage and you don't get Unleashed Rage benefits (effectively making 72 AP-> 79AP).
Also, the short cooldown/buff time actually hurts the trinket more than it helps. 10 second use means you only get 10 seconds in Shamanistic Rage per 2 minutes vs 20 seconds for Bloodlust Badge. You only get 10 seconds vs 20 seconds of the Bloodlust/Heroism/Drums/Haste Potion, which can be really important for damage windows.
Oh, you're right. I missed the two from Heroic Seth and Shadow Labs. Those are decent.
Okay, so let me re-examine opportunity costs:
1 red gem = 8 str. Score: 18
1 yellow gem = 5 str, 4 hit rating. Score: 14
1 blue gems = 5 str, 6 stam. Score: 11 (+6 stamina)
Opportunity Cost of a yellow gem: 4ap
Opportunity Cost of a blue gem: 7ap (but you gain 6 stam)
Meta Gem:
Swift Skyfire
24 attack power + Run Speed
Req: 2 yellows
Opportunity Cost - 8ap
Gain is 24ap + Run Speed
Total Gain: 16ap + Run Speed
Relentless Earthstorm
12 agi + 3% crit damage
Req: 2 yellow, 2 blue
Opportunity Cost - 22ap
Gain is 8ap + 12stam + 3% crit damage
Total Gain is (negative)-14ap + 12 stam + 3% crit damage
Potent Unstable Diamond
24 attack power + 5% Stun Resistance
Req: 1 blue
Opportuntiy cost - 7ap
Gain is 17ap + 6 stam + 5% Stun Resist
Keep in mind that those numbers don't include the socket bonus or two that you'd likely get from 1 or 2 pieces of armor for complying with the socket demands. This would technically increase the gain (or decrease the loss) of each meta gem. Relentless Earthstorm uses more not-red-gems, and therefore would probably earn you more set bonuses.
So which of these would you pick?
30 ap + Run Speed
12 stam + 3% crit damage.
31 ap + 6 stam + 5% Stun Resist
Edit: Oh right. I could also just use 2 Green Gems to meet the requirement for the Relentless Earthstorm. I'll take a look at that after we kill Lurker. Sec. \
Edit again: God, green gems suck, and it's worse than using 4 other gems.
30 ap + Run Speed
31 ap + 6 stam + 5% Stun Resist
12 stam + 3% crit damage.
Edit: Oh right. I could also just use 2 Green Gems to meet the requirement for the Relentless Earthstorm. I'll take a look at that after we kill Lurker. Sec.
Now, if you consider Run Speed a must (and most melee classes do), how does being able to use the Surefooted Boot Enchant (+10 hit rating) factor in against Boar's/Cat Speed? :P
I reached the conclusion that every single socket I have would be best filled by +8 strength. None of my existing (or near future) socket bonuses are compelling enough to justify going with any other gem. According to the stat weights that we've defined in this thread, 8 strength is just so much significantly more valuable than any of the hit, crit or agility options.
This is sort of a bogus conclusion. For all of Disquette's work with stat equivalence, the fact of the matter is that hit, crit, and AP are all inter-related. There is no true equivalence forumla; it's a 3-item Venn diagram that you have to keep the intersection of in the center. Strength may drag the circle a little bit harder than hit or crit, but if you go completely overboard on one stat, you won't see the sort of gains you expect. Getting the hit cap with no AP and no crit isn't particularly outstanding (though it is nice for SR), similarly having 2000 AP and 10% miss chance isn't very good either. All three stats need to be take in moderation for best results.
Also on the topic of that +7 damage trinket, it's important to remember that +7 damage is pre-mitigation. If you're using a 2.6 in each hand, it's only equivalent to about 2.75 weapon DPS before mitigation, which means it's pretty crappy. You need very low attack speeds for +weapon damage to be good.
Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 06/15/07 at 2:01 AM.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
This is sort of a bogus conclusion. For all of Disquette's work with stat equivalence, the fact of the matter is that hit, crit, and AP are all inter-related. There is no true equivalence forumla; it's a 3-item Venn diagram that you have to keep the intersection of in the center. Strength may drag the circle a little bit harder than hit or crit, but if you go completely overboard on one stat, you won't see the sort of gains you expect. Getting the hit cap with no AP and no crit isn't particularly outstanding (though it is nice for SR), similarly having 2000 AP and 10% miss chance isn't very good either. All three stats need to be take in moderation for best results.
Right, I understand that. However, his weights and conclusions were reached using rather modest numbers like 20% hit, and 1800 raid buffed AP. These are pretty easily obtainable without any sockets. So when considering what gems to use for these sockets, I think using our weights is 100% valid.
Also on the topic of that +7 damage trinket, it's important to remember that +7 damage is pre-mitigation. If you're using a 2.6 in each hand, it's only equivalent to about 2.75 weapon DPS before mitigation, which means it's pretty crappy. You need very low attack speeds for +weapon damage to be good.
AP and +weapon damage are affected equally by AC? For comparison purposes, it's fine to leave out those factors that affect both equally.
This is sort of a bogus conclusion. For all of Disquette's work with stat equivalence, the fact of the matter is that hit, crit, and AP are all inter-related. There is no true equivalence forumla; it's a 3-item Venn diagram that you have to keep the intersection of in the center. Strength may drag the circle a little bit harder than hit or crit, but if you go completely overboard on one stat, you won't see the sort of gains you expect. Getting the hit cap with no AP and no crit isn't particularly outstanding (though it is nice for SR), similarly having 2000 AP and 10% miss chance isn't very good either. All three stats need to be take in moderation for best results.
This is somewhat disingenuous. The "equivalence formula" isn't an equivalence formula. It can be stated as such and yes, given that wording, it isn't entirely valid. How it should be considered is as a golden ratio for Enhancement itemization; you will perform best (for visualization purposes, the three circles of your Venn diagram will intersect perfectly) with a ratio of 8:3:2 ap:crit:hit.
If you understand it as "ap is worth twice as much as hit, therefore i should avoid hit altogether" then yes, your performance will definitely suffer.
I like the golden ratio analagy, however even that does not completely fit. If we consider hit vs ap once you reach the hit cap there is no true ratio, it is capped, there is absoutely no value in an additional point of hit.
If it has no value at that point the ratio idea is blown. If you look at it as a 3 way sliding scale between hit/ap/and Crit you would see a fairly liner gain from ap, where crit would start very valuable, and taper off, and hit would be the same with a completely flat gain at 25.5%.
The golden ratio is sort of right, but I don't think for the reasons stated above, and not in the proportions stated, but in proportions^1.5.
I'm not sure what the current consensus pawn ratios are, but let's say you thought they were
Str = 1.0
CritRating = 1.5
HitRating = 0.5
If someone came up to you and gave you the choice between 100 Str, 100 Crit, and 100 Hit, you'd pick the 100 Crit, no question.
When you're looking at items with combinations of stats, the ilvl and 1.5 factor for combining them come into play, and you bet more efficient results by combining stats than stacking one.
I believe the correct combo is in proportion to the weight^1.5 power. (Still tinkering in Excel to convince myself of this.)
Continuing the above example: The powers listed above ^1.5 are
1.0, 1.8, and 0.35. Sum of those is 3.15. Relative proportions are 32%, 57%, and 11%.
So let's say you have 100 ilvl points to spend. I believe you would want them spent in a 32:57:11 ratio (str:crit:hit) to get max ilvl efficiency.
Working this out, with 100 ilvl points (ignore slot mod and epic mods; they can just get tacked on, I think):
I believe the most efficient combination would be
Str: 43
CritRating: 76
HitRating: 14
This gives a "pawn sum" of 164, with an "efficiency" (pawn sum/ilvl) of 1.64. I don't think any other combo of Str/CritRating/HitRating can result in a higher efficiency. (Stacking 100 of any single stat creates an efficiency of 1.0.)
Applying this to a specific slot: given the ratios above, I think the ideal ilvl 125 epic necklace for DPS would be
Str:23
CritRating:39
HitRating:8
For a while i was trying "any hits within 0.5 seconds of each other group as a single for the purposes of flurry reduction, but that fell apart too, under scrutiny.
I think this is a valid point anyway, since Blizzard has serious timing problems and they don't fix the timer but only add workarounds (totems etc.). I think that the 0.5s lag is correct, the exact value is dynamic, server load dependent maybe.
But it should be wise not to discard this idea.
Long time reader in this thread, but I've finally taken it up to figure it out. After thoroughly reading the thread, I've seen so much different conclusions and opinions that I'm really lost now.
My gear can be found in my profile.
I have 1358 ap, 218 hitrating and 24.24% crit unbuffed. I feel like I'm overdid the hitrating a little and undervalued crit. Should I go ahead and replace some of my hitgems with crit, e.g? Or will that just not matter at all?
I, from the conclusions I've read, believe the dual wield hitcap is ~25% and I'm damn close to that, really. I suppose more crit would buff my DPS, or even more attack power?
I'm really confused and lost by all the numbers and mathematical discussions in this thread and would love to hear some opinions in regards to my gear... more hit, crit or rather ap/strength gems?
It's easy to feel like you've overdone hit rating since the majority of mobs you fight aren't level 73. Most trash mobs are 70-72, so you get lulled in to a false sense of security when you notice you aren't missing much. You still have another 25 points or so to reach the hit cap; I would say your stats are pretty well balanced where you are at right now.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
I guess they are pretty balanced and I suppose the only way to really buff my DPS is to get a better OH =/. I just don't like arena enough to justify spending time in there and besides, being an Enhancement Shaman in there is just pure torture from time to time.
I'm pretty uncertain, since it would be a quite big +hit gap, but would the t4 helm with a Skyfire Diamond and a +8 strength gem be better in the long run or not? It's a big +hit difference and I'd rather not spend any gold on getting it socketed and enchanted when I could just stay with what I have.
If you don't have the 2pc T4 set bonus and using the helm would give it to you, it's absolutely worth it for the improvement to SoE totem alone, if not it's mostly a matter of preference. I am of the opinion that Cyclone looks goddamn awesome and getting run speed in the meta socket means you can get another 10 hit rating enchanted on your boots.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
I unfortunatly don't have any other tier 4 enhancement pieces, I took all the healing versions and passed a few times on tier 4 enhancement gloves, so it would be indeed for looks/run speed, I suppose.
06/14/07, 3:39 PM
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