Malan

I can't imagine what effects you would have up that would sustain a 1.0 or less speed on your MH over even a 5 minute long fight.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Sintor

Optimistic, really. 2x Band of devestation, dragonstrike, and dragonspine trophy are consistently up. With four piece t5 flurry clocks in at 35%. Realistically I would say you could stick to 1.3-1.5 depending on your mainhand, with pretty nice drops due to meta and double mongoose. This does assume a lot of end-game gear, but it's becoming more and more obtainable.

 

Sebudai

Along the same lines as Stigmata's question; I recently picked up a Rising Tide and a Syphon of the Nathrezim. I'm currently planning to use the Syphon offhand, since it is slower. I'm wondering how Rising Tide/Syphon compares to Rising Tide/Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, considering the Rising Tide and Cleaver have the same speed and are also axes(I'm an orc).

I've been using Disquette's sim, but it can't take into account the orc racial or the proc from the Syphon, as far as I know.

 

Azide

Right now I've got Dragonmaw and DST. Does the haste meta really beat out the +crit damage one? Wowhead says 1ppm, which is pretty decent after considering yellow attacks.

 

Azaranth

I think consensus is that the haste meta gem is terrible. It's my opinion that Swift Skyfire is good because of low requirements (and you free up your boot enchant) but Relentless Earthstorm is the highest DPS, but requires 4 non-red gems.

 

Stigmata

We have been killing gruul weekly since 17th of Feb and we haven't had a single one drop yet.

 

Humbaba

The trials of the Naaru should have the new reward quest that Tigole mentioned reward a new enhance totem (amongst other rewards for other classes).

 

Stigmata

I don't follow, what is this your talking about?

 

Pater

Tigole said they are considering adding (retroactive) rewards to the Trials of the Naaru, now that they have no purpose. I think Humbaba means that they should add a totem/relic item reward that's an upgrade from Astral Winds.

 

Igniter

Astral winds is pretty good, compared to the other enh totems. Maybe a buffed version of Astral winds which also applies to your group. That'd be sick.

 

Ilmatar

The haste gem is terrible, terrible...do not pick it up. It has a 45s internal cooldown, short duration, and no passive effect. It is my opinion that the +12agi +3% crit damage, Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, is the best to get.

 

◊ Rob

I think it's pretty firmly established that Relentless Earthstorm Diamond is the best DPS.

Many of us really like having 5% run speed, though; it can be the difference between life and death on a Shatter or a Pounding. So the comparison then is between Swift Skyfire + Enchant Boots: Dexterity (24 AP, 5% run speed, 12 AGI) and Relentless Earthstorm + Enchant Boots: Boar's Speed (12 AGI, 3% crit damage, 5% run speed, 9 STA). In DPS terms then you are comparing 24 AP to 3% crit damage. Have we seen this direct comparison?

I guess for completeness we could also consider Enchant Boots: Surefooted, but that should be exclusively worse for DPS than Enchant Boots: Dexterity, you are only getting that 5% snare/root resist; to me that's of more limited use compared to the run speed.

 

Kirion

If its terrible, why almost all rogues say its best meta gem for them? Do you have facts to prove this?

42.

 

Kaideq

Because high end rogues will use less crit and more ap compared to shamans, combine that with combat potency and you have why.

it's about 0.9 ish PPM from my proc watcher, so a tad less then 10% of the time (6 sec proc)

 

Otze

Hi,
I hope, this is the right place to post this. A Member of the German Shaman Forums gave me the link, so that i can get some feedback for my math. I hope you all can understand, or at least follow me, because my english is not the best.

I thought a while about how Windfury works in connection with dual wield in a mainly mathematical manner, though i made a few tests for getting some hints. I think i now got the right formula for calculating windfury especially in conjunction with Stormstrike.

I think the only way to calculate a chance for a windfury proc is by calculating the number of strikes a windfury proc occur in average. The Number of Hits consist of the hits which are usually done during the 3 second cooldown and the expected value of the procchance when a wf proc is possible.

Pwf=1/(X+N)

Pwf is the procchance, X is the "Magic number" and N is the number of strikes during the cooldown.

Calculation of N:
First i'll introduce the direct way of calculating N without stormstrike(with, its much more complicated). When a Weapon starts a windfury, it resets its swingtimer, so with a 2.2 weapon we have to wait 2.2 seconds until the weapon may attack again, so it will allways strike once during the 3 seconds, never 2 times. The weapon in the other hand isn't in such a well defined state, there could be one or 2 attacks.

When both Weapons have the same speed, the Formula for N is:
Ws=Weaponspeed
N=floor(3/Ws)+3/Ws

With two different speeds, it starts to get complicated. Mainly its the same formula but we have to weight it with the weaponspeeds. While a 1.6 weapon strikes only once during the 3sec cooldown when it produces a windfury proc, it might do 2 strikes, when the other hand procs.
Wm=weaponspeed Main Wo=weaponspeed off
P=the chance the main/offhand weapon procs windfuror. the higher the speed difference, the higher the chance
Pm=1/(Wm/Wo+1)
Po=1-Pm
N=Pm*(floor(3/Wm)+3/Wo)+Po*(floor(3/Wo)+3/Wm)

The Magic Number cannot be directly calculated, but it can be tested. I made these tests(i don't want to waste your time with these stupid stochastic calculations), and X seems to be 3.
This works very well and so one can say that the WF procchance is nearly 33%.

Ok, now the easy part ends. This calculation only works, when you don't ever dare to use stormstrike, stormstrike changes the procchance!

first of all, lets calculate the damagebonus a stormstrike gives. It's mainly a calculation of how much damage the 2 additional attacks do compared to the normal damage.

SSBonus=(10*hitchance/Wm+10*hitchance/Wo+2*yellowhit)/(10*hitchance/Wm+10*hitchance/Wo)-1

the Damagebonus gets more accurate, when you use a 11 instead of a 10, because one cannot use SS every 10 seconds due to lag and other bad things.

What happens, when stormstike is used? 3 things might happen:
1. The stormstrike is done in the 3second cooldown. no wf can occur
2. The stormstrike procs wf
3. The stormstrike can proc wf but doesn't (due to bad luck )

Point 1 and 2 have to be added to N.
The first one is done by multiplying N with the SSBonus. When stormstrike increases the damage by x%, the strikes also have to be increased by the same amount. Though we don't know, when a wf proc occurs(we get this information with a small delay, like 0,5sec), we have to assume that we geht x% more strikes during the 3second cooldown.
What happens in the second case?
when stormstrike procs wf, bot weapon swingtimer aren't defined, so we cannot say that any weapon does only 1 strike in the following 3 seconds. so we have to add a calculation for that.

SSN=SSBonus*(3/SM+3/SO)+(1-SSBonus)(1+SSBonus)*N
=SSBonus*(3/SM+3/SO)+(1-SSBonus^2)*N

The SSBonus*(3/SM+3/SO)+(1-SSBonus) part is for case 2, (1+SSBonus) is for case one.

I hope, you could understand me, and that this calculations can help to improve the damage calculations for shamans

 

Kirion

And relentless is ~ 1% dps increase in best case. Maybe relentless is better, but 23% haste with 10% uptime, when most of your damage coming from white attacks is far from terrible. And i think which gem better is very dependant on actual character stats.

42.

 

Malan

We are not rogues. Our itemization and mechanics are wildly different from theirs.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Stopokingme

Why Boar's Speed? I'd say use Cat's Swiftness instead.

 

Unaz

From a pure dps standpoint, the only real boot enchants to consider are 12 agility or Surefooted I'd imagine. And anyone who throws ~13 points into the resto tree for 3% +hit and nothing else of note should hang their head in shame if they don't get (relatively) easy +hit on their boots.

Run speed has no real use in PvE, it's so miniscule as to be almost unnoticeable, and if you're paying attention on the fights where quick movement matters you'll be fine anyway. Gruul shatters are easily manageable unless you get 8 people almost directly on top of each other, Lurker and Void Reaver are both on known timers, etc.

 

Malan

au contraire. I contend that run speed is hands down the single best enchant you can get for PvE. Its probably long lost in the archives of EJ, but there was an excellent thread pre-TBC that explained the exact DPS losses that occurred by not having this.

And its definitely not "unnoticeable." You're telling me you don't notice when someone else runs faster than you do? When a guy pulls way ahead of you in the instance during a run back?

Less time running back to Gruul after a shatter = more time spent on DPS.
Not having to jump in the water on Lurker and instead running around the circle ahead of the spout = more time spent DPSing.

Run speed has all sorts of positive benefits. Tanks get to targets faster when intercept/intervene are on cooldown (ok since the inception of intervene this is probably a non-issue, but it was a big deal back in the day), rogues reach the targets faster and move between targets faster in a multi-target encounter, healers get in/out of range faster, etc etc. Its value should not be underwritten.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

◊ Shalas

http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=20
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=48

Run speed is pretty easily the best enchant in the game for anything other than Patchwerk.

 

◊ Rob

I'm a little embarrassed to say that I didn't even know Cat's Swiftness existed. I wonder if any of the enchanters in my guild have that.

 

Pater

To answer Otze: I believe what you're doing is creating a closed-form solution/approximation for the benefit from each stat. Check out Tornhoof's posts--he uses the same approach.

 

Malan

Shalas, thanks for those links, I'll add to the Collected Works thread.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Unaz

Hmm, good point. I guess I haven't played with it enough. Every time I've messed with it, I wasn't impressed at all on the speed difference. It seemed like to make any difference I'd have to be travelling 5+ seconds to gain any kind of lead.