• Disquette

Slight derail - how is a Markov chain different, in terms of applicability, from a poison distribution after the 3 sec cooldown?

 

Negative

I think the difference in this situation is they wanted to use only one person for both resist spells instead of the two. Kinda weird imo but I guess that's what his raid leader thought was most "efficient".

 

Otze

When i understood, what you said(and yes, this time it was hard for me and my bad english) than the main diference between our approaches is, that i work on swing level, while you work on time level. What you do is asking, "how many seconds do i have to wait between 2 wf procs in average", while i ask: "how many swings do i need?".

 

Tornhoof

If my courses don't fail me, this is true for first order markov chains,

my Idea was rather to model atleast 4th order, which technically includes the last 3 swings, ideally as much swings as it is nessary to model the last windfury proc too

The difference won't be large, but I actually hope that there will be a difference at all, simply to bypass the current statistic problem of a 3s cooldown

Yes I've basically given up on the idea of creating a properly working closed-form of the windfury model (atleast until I read up on higher order markov chains), so my current approach is to assume a certain average windfury proc time (those 3.1-3.2s) and use this to calculate the actual weighted proc probability. This should work just fine for dual wield and my optimization model. In either case, the difference we're talking about is in the less than 1%. The only interesting findings which should lead me to use a different approach is when you can properly formulate a model, where a slower OH is superior. Until this the ideal Weapon choice (ingame) is still dual wielding those Syphon of the Nathrezim
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32262.

The reason for this simple, my optimization tool needs a closed form expression (and ideally a fairly fast one), since it evaluates it like 500 times for each generation.

 

Lujaar

Elixir of Major Agility may be better depending on your other buffs.

As has already been stated (I believe in this thread, might have been another one), 2 AP, 1 crit rating, and 1 hit rating become equal in value at 2200 AP, 27% crit, 22% hit. Unbuffed, the vast majority of shamans are way under equilibrium on AP, and thus benefit most from str/AP buffs. However, if you're in a group with no feral druid, you'll likely be over equilibrium on AP, as you'll probably have no buffs to your crit but will have SoE totem, Imp. Battle Shout, and Blessing of Might buffing your AP into the stratosphere. At that point, Major Agi may become as valuable or more than Relentless Assault, and will open up the option of using Major Mageblood or Major Fortitude besides.

 

Negative

Hmmm, ok, looks like I'll be bringing a few different things with me until we figure out our standard group set-up.

 

Igniter

Well you need two resist groups anyways, unless you're running with 4 tank only o_O. Makes sense to give them ALL warlocks and such.

 

Negative

Sorry, missed the part where he said it was Hydross. >.> Skimming a bit too fast perhaps.

 

Malacort

Hello,

I have read pretty much this entire thread and the other enhance shaman one but I haven't been able to find some info I've been looking for though, mainly:

I have 3 trinkets I want to choose from.. Hourglass of the Unraveller, Bloodlust Brooch and Romulo's Poison Vial. I have come to the conclusion that the Hourglass would be the best choice for one of my trinket slots, but what would be the best for the other?

I have 1364ap, 26.97% crit and 19.02% hit (talents/hit rating combined) so would it be best to use the Bloodlust Brooch for its passive 72ap over Romulo's 2.22% hit /dmg proc?

I'm basically trying to find the best optimal hit rating so I can sacrifice +hit for +ap/str etc.

Thanks in advance, and I apologize if this question has been asked but I missed the answer.

 

Negative

I got a response about "equilibrium values" a few posts up when asking about elixirs/flasks, hopefully it'll help answer your question a little bit.

I'm not 100% sure on what kind of DPS Romulo's puts out (which could be converted to AP, I suppose), but it looks like you're under the ideal values in each category. Hopefully this post will help you a little bit.

 

Pater

I'm not sure who has argued that the weights are "equilibrium" values. That has certainly not been my approach, anyway. There is no such thing as "equilibrium" -- all everyone is trying to do is find the steepest slope (most efficient way to increase) their DPS function. There's not necessarily any "golden mean" that will hold for all gear sets. To take an extreme example, at some point of very high gear levels, both hit and crit will be capped, and the only way to increase your dps will be to add AP. So there is no universally applicable golden mean or equilibrium.

I've used my mod to evaluate the marginal benefit (i.e., first partial derivative) at a typical stat level, roughly corresponding to the best gear available in Kara: 2200AP, 25%crit, 22%hit. If your gear is at this level, the 1.1 str, 1.0 cr/agi, 0.7 hr, 0.5ap weights should be correct. The 2200/25%/22% should not be seen as a goal or equilibrium position, just as a starting point that's roughly common to many shaman.

If your current stat values are much different from the 2200/25%/22%, the best thing would be for you to download one of the simulators (there are about three ones out there that agree with each other AFAIK) and do 7 runs:
Run 0 - at your current stats
Run 1a - Add 100 AP, and calculate (change in dps)/(change in AP)
Run 1b - Subtract 100 AP, and calculate (change in dps)/(change in AP)
Run 2a - Add 50 cr ...
Run 2b - Subtract 50cr
Run 3a - Add 50 hr
Run 3c - Subtract 50hr

With those 7 runs, you should be able to see how dps is affected by ap, crit, and hit. AGI's weight should equal cr's weight (with kings) and STR's weight should be 2.2x AP's weight (with kings).

 

Malan

So over the weekend I managed to finally get the Totem of the Astral Wind, and yesterday purchased my new Merciless Gladiator Cleaver. Amazing difference. My Stormstrikes are now hitting close to 1000 total dmg on average and WF is pretty consistently over 2k total dmg. I jumped right back into the top 4 DPS in the Eye last night after languishing around the lower half of the DPS for the past month.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Azide

So I'm in a bit of a struggle right now on which arena offhand to get. The pros/cons may be minor but it is many weeks worth of points for me. I'll have enough for it on next week's calc.

Axe: Looks cooler, is more discrete. No Mongoose glow, which is both a pro and a con.
Mace: Matches my Dragonmaw (soon to be Dragonstrike) in weapon class. As a "rogue weapon class," +mace skill on loot I'd want is MUCH more likely than +axe skill. Screams "LOL I AM AN ARENA WEAPON" from across the map.

(I BG maybe 2hrs/day average, arena casually on a "for the points" team.)

Maybe I'm over analyzing things. Constructive thoughts, or am I just nitpicking?

 

Pater

I got the s1 axe for OH but am considering getting the mace for s2 for MH just for some variety. It seems like everybody gets the axe.

As far as I know, there are no practical differences. I can't think of any weapon skill items that would favor maces over axes or v-v.

 

Negative

I think the axe is just more aesthetically pleasing than the mace.

 

Nemaa

Assume, that you have all of these weapons:

Syphon of the Nathrezim
Binds when picked up One-Hand Mace
196 - 365 Damage Speed 2.80
(100.2 damage per second)
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 50.
Chance on hit: Fills you with fel energy allowing all melee attacks to drain life from opponents.

Rod of the Sun King
Binds when picked up
Unique One-Hand Mace
186 - 347 Damage Speed 2.70
(98.7 damage per second)
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Chance on hit: Chance on melee attack to gain 10 Energy or 5 Rage.
Equip: Increases attack power by 50.

Talon of the Phoenix
Binds when picked up Main Hand Fist Weapon
177 - 329 Damage Speed 2.70
(93.7 damage per second)
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 14.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Increases attack power by 48.

Wicked Edge of the Planes
Binds when picked up
Unique Main Hand Axe
184 - 343 Damage Speed 2.70
(97.6 damage per second)
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Requires Master Axesmith
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 23.
Equip: Increases attack power by 48.

Dragonstrike
Binds when picked up
Unique Main Hand Mace
184 - 343 Damage Speed 2.70
(97.6 damage per second)
+19 Stamina
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Requires Master Hammersmith
Chance on hit: Increases your haste rating by 212 for 10 sec.

Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver
Binds when picked up One-Hand Axe
177 - 330 Damage Speed 2.60
(97.5 damage per second)
+27 Stamina
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30.

Rising Tide
Binds when picked up
Unique One-Hand Axe
208 - 313 Damage Speed 2.60
(100.2 damage per second)
+33 Stamina
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 21.
Equip: Increases attack power by 44.

Swiftsteel Bludgeon
Binds when picked up One-Hand Mace
105 - 196 Damage Speed 1.50
(100.3 damage per second)
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 19.
Equip: Improves haste rating by 27.
Equip: Increases attack power by 40.

What do you think is the best MH/OH combination and with what weapon enchants?
What do you think about mainhanding a 2.6 speed one with WF and offhanding the 2.8 speed mace with WF? Is it better than 2.7/2.8 WF/WF? I'm thinking about the speed difference and better chance to proc WF on MH if I use 2.6/2.8 weapons.
How about MH: 2.8 with WF and OH 1.5 with not WF?

 

Malan

Ok the rest of your post is basically "hi, tell me what weapon to use" and this part? Come on, have you even looked through this thread? You should know the answer to this by now.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Nemaa

You are right, I did not read ALL the thread, sorry about that.
I read WF/WF is the best because it scales with gear and also I read slow/slower is better for having better chances to proc WF on MH. I tought it is worth to have 2.8/1.5 because of the haste effect the offhand mace has. So You are telling me that it isn't...

 

mek

There's plenty of leather out there that has sword/mace/dagger/unarmed skill rating and conveniently leaves off axes, as it is targeted to rogues. Maybe not a major concern, but a concern nonetheless.

 

havefaith

I had a thought today that sparked my interest in a 19/42/0 raid build.

As i've always thought the 0/42/19 build (or a variation) was vastly superior due to the the extra +hit. I've been approaching the hit cap, and looking for ways to dump some of it in favor for +crit and attack power, or any flavor of extra damage output. An easy option would be to change up my gems, but i'm interested in maybe trying the 19/42/0 build.

Looking over my recaps, I've always realised that shocks are a minimal part of my damage. However, with this spec the shock damage would be increased by 5%, lowered cooldown by one second (this will be important in the near future for me, more on that later), and, my personal favorite, the 9% crit buff upon spell crit.

Now, looking a little closer, treating this crit buff as sort of a *on effect* trinket (including a 15% resist rate on shocks), it comes down to 0.55 PPM effect, which isn't very often. But it would make me not so terrified to see so much intellect all over the gear I've been getting.

Another interesting tidbit is I'm working on a blessings deck, basically because it will grant me an *almost* passive 120 attack power buff, but it also comes with a seperate stacking spell damage buff, which falls after 10 seconds. Which means with 5s cooldown shocks and assuming lag is good to me (I haven't tested this), that in the event of a shock resist, I can sneak another one in before the spell power buff falls. I would definitely be treating this spell damage buff as a side of gravy so to speak (not really nessesary, but welcomed).


With all this in mind, I'm still not sure if dumping an easy +3 hit talent is worth the extra spell damage output, but I will definitely be testing this build upon getting the blessings deck in the near future (or perhaps sooner).

One question I'd like to ask, is, can anyone think of any other gear I could obtain that would be itemised for melee stats, but come with *free* attached spell damage or spell crit? Example being the blessings deck.

Only other peice I can think of besides the blessings deck, is, well, the storms deck, which comes with a stacking melee/spell crit buff, which would have had alot of potential, however, the crit buffs are linked, in that, my melee hits would munch away the stacking crit buff faster than I can say "Lol I got hurtful". What would be great is if there was a way I could force a spell crit using some off the wall itemisation I can't think of.


Also, the blessings deck trinket, and elemental devestation does not proc off flametongue weapon.

 

Malan

The benefit of 9% Hit from talents is that you can dump a lot of Hit off your gear and not worry about it.

Disquette/Pater et al - have you given thought to perhaps using a Halaa Guard as a new beat down dummy instead of the blasted lands guys? I'm not sure what their total HP (500k+ ?) is but it occurred to me yesterday while bombing them that with a healer assisting you could probably single pull one of them and beat on it for quite awhile. Since they're over lvl 60 the data would be a bit more accurate.

Shitting up every single thread on EJ since '06

 

Wolflord

Ive been specced 19/42/0 since day dot and I definitely consider it preferable from a raw raiding standpoint. I really think the cooldown reduction on shocks is the real drawcard to this spec. The increased shock-rate is a full 20% increase in magic damage assuming you spam shocks and have the mana available, and I find my dps breakdown leaning towards 15% magic damage. Even this 26% increase on 10% of your dps works out favourably with Natures Guidance (which is only a 1.5 - 2.1% dps increase depending on whose simulations you favour). The added interrupt utility is rather nice too, although missing the 3% spellhit goes a small way to counteract this.

Elemental Devestation really isnt the reason you spec elemental though, with a shock crit rate of only 5% it only works out to around 0.8-1% increased crit rate. The real beauty of devestation is just the epeen waving (2400AP and 48% crit self buffed when the moon aligns in pre-25man gear) though if it procs at the right time its definitely non-trivial damage.

There really isnt the gear to support your shocks though, the only real item i see benefitting from the elemental minor is the Prism of Inner Calm whose 1000threat reduction on spell crit is benefitted by the 20% increase in shocks flying around.

In the end it depends on how you value your magic damage, as the two specs only real differences are:
26% increased magic damage and 1% increased crit (roughly 3.5% dps increase at the cost of mana)
vs
3% to hit and 30yard totems (roughly 1.5% dps increase however more mana efficient (less totem redrops on mobile fights))

 

• Disquette

Unfortunately, at least in my situation, requiring another person to be present takes it to the realm of impossibility. People hate testing, especially if it's not even for their class.

 

drats

A quick question concercning the elemental devastation proc, do totem crits proc it as well? What's the average uptime of ED? It would basically push my raid crit over 50%, which is like candy for WF.

Edit: Also, does call of flame increase the damage done by our fire elementals?

 

Nite_Moogle

I wouldn't be surprised either way. When I tested it, it didn't affect FT totem at all.