[Shaman] Itemizing Enhancement at 70 - Page 6

Jezele · 03/21/07, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle

A 3.0 and 1.5 give an EWS of 1.0, but you won't actually get as many swings in a UR duration using those two weapons as you would with a single 1.0.

Excellent point. It's a good approximation for calculating overall hits, but there isn't an easily definable way to account for "wasted" time (especially as the "perfect" alignment starting a series would happen infrequently at best considering the variable effects of flurry). As for the "backwards" calculation, it's what my gut tells me is the way to go, but I can't completely wrap my head around it. But if it's correct, the equation would look like something like [1 - (1-crit %) ^ (10/MH speed + 10/OH speed)].

Regarding WF proc chance, your best bet is to find the least common denominator between your two weapons (that is, the second point in a timeline where they will both swing at the same time with the first being 0.0) and determine the maximum number of times that WF could have procced if you got one starting at 0.0, then multiply by 20%. It won't be totally accurate, but given the massive variance in potential proc rate it'll be reasonable.

I actually compared your method to my equations and they came up with identical results for any of the values I chose. So I'm pretty sure we're just approaching this problem in similar directions.

Your calculations aren't right then, it should be much closer to 40%. Make sure you're accounting for higher AP, inability to glance, and 2 swings per proc that will not miss with any amount of +hit gear at all.

AP and 2 swings are already included. I didn't include glancing blows in my white damage calculations, but that wouldn't completely account for the disparity (and if anything, reducing autoattack damage would largely inflate the SS damage beyond its current 15%). I suspect the 40/40/10 ratio assumes the current down-ranking scheme (my current calculations show about a 8.5% proc rate with my current setup once the WF change gets implemented), but even if I doubled the DPS from WF, I'm still closer to a 60/25/15 ratio (I'm not including other damage sources in my spreadsheet). It's possible that this figure is closer to what we'll see when downranking is no longer valid and we're not seeing so many quad-WF's (which is depressing, to say the least).

Gutter · 03/21/07, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Vernichter

I've been meaning to ask this directly for some time, but I have been hesitant given the fundamental complications of modeling enhancement DPS. How do [Black Planar Edge] and [Dragonmaw] stack up?

The weapon DPS and speeds are identical, so it comes down to 8 stam and a 200 haste proc vs. 41 AP and 20 crit rating. At first glance, I would naturally lean toward the haste proc because I have the gut feeling that it scales better; however, with the convoluted nature of our mechanics it seems far from clear.

I've still got a few levels to go on my shaman but I've been wondering the same exact thing. The stats on the axe are fantastic but the haste is really nice also but I've seen several posts saying haste actually decreases WF's chance to proc with the 3 second cool down in place. Sure wish there was a handy dandy DPS sheet like PF's rogue one. :P

Nite_Moogle · 03/21/07, 4:04 PM

As for the "backwards" calculation, it's what my gut tells me is the way to go, but I can't completely wrap my head around it. But if it's correct, the equation would look like something like [1 - (1-crit %) ^ (10/MH speed + 10/OH speed)].

You have to determine the number of swings that you can fit in a 10 second window and without conditionals that's nearly impossible.

Where MH speed > OH speed:

MHSwingcounter = 0;
timer = 10;
while (timer > 0)
{
if (count <1)
{  timer - MHFlurriedSpeed;}
else
{ timer - MHNormalSpeed;}
MHSwingcounter++;
}
return MHSwingCounter;

then repeat that for the offhand with count<2, then

1- (1-crit%)^(MHSwingCounter+OHSwingCounter)

Of course if both weapons are the same speed, then you do count<2 in both loops.

There's a good reason there's no Shaman spreadsheet that is the equivalent of Pf or Deathwing's. Shaman melee interaction is much, much more complex.

Jezele · 03/21/07, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Sebudai

Well over 20%.

Based on your logs (and making the assumption that we currently get an average of 3 WF attacks off of every proc since about half are quads and half are doubles, at least from my experience), you're around a 17-18% proc rate. This fits pretty well with my 8-9% estimation (I'm assuming the future MH/OH linkage), so I think this equation will be relatively accurate post-patch.

After a little more fiddling: Doubling my calculated DPS to account for the current lack of linkage with downranking and then multiplying by 1.5 for an average of 3 attacks per WF proc rather than my calculated 2, puts me at 55/35/15. The discrepency from the observed 40/40/10 ratio is likely due to ignoring glancing blows in my autoattack damage calculation. This actually makes a lot of sense: linking the two hands will eliminate about half our procs, and eliminating the quad procs will reduce the damage output by about 2/3. So the 40/40/10 ratio becomes 40/(40*1/3)/10, or pretty close to my calculated 60/20/20 ratio.

There's a good reason there's no Shaman spreadsheet that is the equivalent of Pf or Deathwing's. Shaman melee interaction is much, much more complex.

I'd be happy with "close enough," really, just so I can get a better idea of what stats would best improve my overall DPS. (Or just drive me back to my fully-theorycraftable hunter

)

mek · 03/21/07, 5:18 PM

Originally Posted by Azaranth

I think there needs to be a deep enhancement talent to advocate this. I'm a big proponent of spell damage for a hybrid enhancement role. I'd just like to see an enhancement talent that gave us a higher coefficient on shocks and heals, or one that let us convert a small amount of AP to +SpellDamage.

Bingo. If Blizzard wants to encourage hybrid playstyle they can do so; putting dmg/healing on enhance gear is about as effective as putting healing, int and spirit on feral gear.

panny · 03/21/07, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jezele

Based on your logs (and making the assumption that we currently get an average of 3 WF attacks off of every proc since about half are quads and half are doubles, at least from my experience), you're around a 17-18% proc rate. This fits pretty well with my 8-9% estimation (I'm assuming the future MH/OH linkage), so I think this equation will be relatively accurate post-patch.

I'm sure you realise this, but he was talking about how much of his total damage consisted of WF procs, he wasn't talking about the "real" proc rate.

Malan · 03/22/07, 1:11 AM

So about 2 weeks ago I picked up the Big Bad Wolf Paw and today the Fool's Bane dropped and I snagged it after the rogues said they didn't want it. Having a hard time figuring out which one is more ideal to use, the rogues were astounded that I would even consider not using the Paw. Thoughts?

Igniter · 03/22/07, 1:18 AM

I'd probably use fool's, just because it has the hot socketand max damage. Although, the two are really really close.

Nite_Moogle · 03/22/07, 1:35 AM

I'd say Fool's unless you really need the HP for some reason, but it's pretty much a wash. Fool's with slightly more dps vs more HP on the BBWP.

Malan · 03/22/07, 1:43 AM

I figured I'd keep them both around for different situations, the extra HP for Gruul maybe or something like that. Not to mention that the Bane looks 10x cooler than the re-hashed claw graphic from MC.

Kirion · 03/22/07, 8:33 AM

And what about offhand? I was thinking about crafting Fel Edged Battleaxe, but noone on our server seems to have this recipe. There is daggers ofc, but i'd prefer slower offhand and i dont want to steal them from rogues

Malan · 03/22/07, 9:28 AM

I grabbed the arena Off Hand in the mean time while waiting for a more PvE appropriate one. 1.8 spd and 88 DPS.

◊ Kurisu · 03/22/07, 4:23 PM

Whats everyones opinion on the Bladefist? Its a pretty decent weapon to start off with and I picked it up since it was downgrade/sidegrades for all (im still resto but building an enhancement set). I will probably have a Gladiator OH since I am getting my armor first for the resilence and not sure what level of gear would be considered an upgrade dps wise from the bladefist itself. I dont and wont be getting Blacksmith to go dragonmaw like a lot of Shamans I see.

EDIT: A more accurate question is how much of a contribution would the haste make to keep it for a very long time, i was going to get a Truncheon as an OH but with my arena gear setout already for the time being I can afford to just get an OH.

Malan · 03/22/07, 6:31 PM

I have the Gladiator cleaver Off Hand and it definitely contributed a chunk to my DPS this week. Well worth the purchase.

MeCh · 03/23/07, 1:16 AM

Windfury totem doesn't seem to have the 3 second cooldown, would using wf totem for mh and oh windfury be viable?

Myul · 03/23/07, 1:30 AM

Could work, but you should lose a lot of DPS, because:

Elemental weapon increase afair total dealt damage, improved weapon totems increases only the ap.

Winning with totem:
- one white attack that can be a glancing strike (not quite sure about that, but should) and can procc %on hit stuff
- non shared timer (to be proven)
Losing with totem:
- a second attack from wf on every procc, no glancing strikes possible at all from wf weapon
- can't drop grace of air for some extra %crit

Even if there well be a shared timer for all ranks soon, dual wf weapon should allways scale better with slow weapons then wf totem + wf weapon without shared timer, because of elemental weapons talent.

drats · 03/23/07, 1:52 AM

I just noticed the first boss of mana tombs heroic drops a relic that gives wf an 80 dps bonus. Does anyone have this, and does it stack with elemental weapons? Also, does it help your WF totem effect, or will it only apply to your personal WF spell?

Mech, what indications have you seen that WF totem doesn't have the cooldown? Since WF totem 5 and WF rank 5 seem to have the same AP bonus, it would really surprise me for them not to share the cooldown.

MeCh · 03/23/07, 2:00 AM

Was running Brd with a paly and noticed chain windfury procs.

Myul · 03/23/07, 2:39 AM

Originally Posted by drats

I just noticed the first boss of mana tombs heroic drops a relic that gives wf an 80 dps bonus. Does anyone have this, and does it stack with elemental weapons? Also, does it help your WF totem effect, or will it only apply to your personal WF spell?

[Totem of the Astral Winds]
Equip: Increases the attack power bonus on Windfury Weapon attacks by 80.

Only for your personal enchant(s) and only add 80 AP not DPS (what a pitty :/ )

I assume they may don't share cd, because wf weapon and wf totem are totally different (white attack vs yellow attack, one attack vs two attacks).
IIRC AP of your wf weapon was slightly higher.

Atm there are also wf weapon chainproccs possible while downranking one hand, so it won't be better until the nerf to use the totem instead.

Pane · 03/23/07, 2:49 AM

Using the WF totem to work around the 3 second cooldown; novel idea but wouldn't work.

You get 1 extra hit instead of 2. Think about it. That's 50% less dmg from the totem vs the imbue (ignoring the AP difference, and elemental weapons) on the mainhand. The cooldown doesn't come anywhere near a 50% gimpage.

Pane · 03/23/07, 2:52 AM

Originally Posted by Kirion

And what about offhand? I was thinking about crafting Fel Edged Battleaxe, but noone on our server seems to have this recipe. There is daggers ofc, but i'd prefer slower offhand and i dont want to steal them from rogues

Also crafted, Runic Hammer. It's slower than fel edged so I went for that one (can craft Fel Edged myself but bought RH instead)

Malan · 03/23/07, 2:55 AM

Use the Arena stuff to supplement your gear. Pick up one of the One-Hand slower weapons and put in your off hand, I think they're 2.5 speed off the top of my head. Even with a bad arena team it doesn't take long to get 2k pts. Admittedly longer perhaps than farming the mats, but depends on what you like.

Igniter · 03/23/07, 4:50 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Use the Arena stuff to supplement your gear. Pick up one of the One-Hand slower weapons and put in your off hand, I think they're 2.5 speed off the top of my head. Even with a bad arena team it doesn't take long to get 2k pts. Admittedly longer perhaps than farming the mats, but depends on what you like.

If only the fist was mainhand

Been thinking something around http://ctprofiles.net/5084917 , comments/thoughts?
Should have 1 meta, 6 red, 3 yellow, and 2 blue gems.

Jezele · 03/23/07, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by panny

I'm sure you realise this, but he was talking about how much of his total damage consisted of WF procs, he wasn't talking about the "real" proc rate.

Yup. I just wanted to figure out why my ratios were so different, and I think it's all because of the incoming nerf (which I estimate will drop our overall DPS to about 75% of what it is now, based on the proposed changes).

Pane · 03/23/07, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Jezele

Yup. I just wanted to figure out why my ratios were so different, and I think it's all because of the incoming nerf (which I estimate will drop our overall DPS to about 75% of what it is now, based on the proposed changes).

Based on what do you estimate this? I've seen nothing to support that.

My own tests show a dps drop of around 10%, and that was a test without using shocks and SS, so the actual effect will be smaller than that, since those aren't affected.