How would it even be remotely possible for our (I say our because I'm in the process of switching my main to my shaman) overall dps to drop by 75% with the WF nerf? I mean does your WF do like 95% of your total damage or something? I really wish people would stop making outlandish comments like this with absolutely no proof what so ever. Unless my rudimentary math skills suck that much then I'll just shut up. :P
How would it even be remotely possible for our (I say our because I'm in the process of switching my main to my shaman) overall dps to drop by 75% with the WF nerf? I mean does your WF do like 95% of your total damage or something? I really wish people would stop making outlandish comments like this with absolutely no proof what so ever. Unless my rudimentary math skills suck that much then I'll just shut up. :P
How would it even be remotely possible for our ... overall dps to drop by 75% with the WF nerf?
Bad math assumptions on my part, basically.
If they manage to eliminate quad procs, it will basically reduce our overall WF DPS by about 2/3 (since we'll only receive the two hits, as opposed to about equal chance for double/quads as we're seeing now. And yes, the equal chance is an assumption on my part, I have no math to base it on, so this multiplier may be in error).
However, I made an error in assuming that by linking the two hands, our proc rate would drop in half. Instead, it would only drop by half of the 20% proc rate, or 10%, as we'd lose the chance to proc only if the other hand had recently proc'ed.
So basically, that 40% would instead become (40% * 2/3 * 90%), or 24% ... which means a net loss of 16% of our damage total. So our "new" DPS would be about 84% of our current value. Not nearly as bad as 75%, but still not just a drop in the bucket either. (The reduction will be less, of course, if my assumption about quad proc frequency is incorrect).
Thanks for reining in my alarmist tendencies!
(Edit: And yes, I was stating it would be 75% of our current DPS, not a loss of 75%. Thanks for the catch!)
Last edited by Jezele : 03/23/07 at 4:13 PM.
Reason: Responding to previous post
Ok I took the wording wrong then. I had expected them to put the WF nerf in the last patch they implemented. Because it wasn't I'm wondering if there is more behind the change than what they've said...or they could just be slow about it. Guess we'll find out soon enough.
If they manage to eliminate quad procs, it will basically reduce our overall WF DPS by about 2/3 (since we'll only receive the two hits, as opposed to about equal chance for double/quads as we're seeing now. And yes, the equal chance is an assumption on my part, I have no math to base it on, so this multiplier may be in error).
However, I made an error in assuming that by linking the two hands, our proc rate would drop in half. Instead, it would only drop by half of the 20% proc rate, or 10%, as we'd lose the chance to proc only if the other hand had recently proc'ed.
So basically, that 40% would instead become (40% * 2/3 * 90%), or 24% ... which means a net loss of 16% of our damage total. So our "new" DPS would be about 84% of our current value. Not nearly as bad as 75%, but still not just a drop in the bucket either. (The reduction will be less, of course, if my assumption about quad proc frequency is incorrect).
Thanks for reining in my alarmist tendencies!
(Edit: And yes, I was stating it would be 75% of our current DPS, not a loss of 75%. Thanks for the catch!)
litterally nothing of your math makes sense to me...
first of there's NO WAY that you get equal quad procs to normal procs. I don't even know where the 90% comes from, nor the 40%, nor the subsequent 24%.
do yourself a favor; load up wf5/wf5 on your weapons, hit a nonkillable mob for an extended time, write down the dps, and then do the same again with wf5/wf4.
If you're really into the theorycraft of this, there's other threads on this forum that handle it far better.
40% is his total assumed wf damage
2/3 is his assumed nerf ("it will basically reduce our overall WF DPS by about 2/3" should be 33% not 66% for your maths )
90% is his total assumed non magic damage (so about 10% for es/fs/ls)
But i can just tell Jezele tell the same as Pane did, get your ass moved to blasted land and simply use wf5/5 to check your total damage post nerf (since same ranks allready have shared cooldown).
I got some numbers from a bored mate at the invul blasted mob, just for some comparisons:
wf5/wf4 mh/oh:
627.1 dps
no weapon enchant:
302.6 dps
just wf5 mh:
406.2 dps
wf5/wf5 mh/oh:
571 dps
wf5/ft7 mh/oh:
466.5 dps
So for this test the linked wf is a net lose of 9% dps, not nearly that much as you assumed, Jezele. Of course, different gear, different numbers, but i don't think it would spread out by more then 15% after all (just think about to add another 20% total dps for ss & shocks! This was only whitedamage plus the weapons enchanted as listed above).
If they manage to eliminate quad procs, it will basically reduce our overall WF DPS by about 2/3 (since we'll only receive the two hits, as opposed to about equal chance for double/quads as we're seeing now. And yes, the equal chance is an assumption on my part, I have no math to base it on, so this multiplier may be in error).
This isn't correct. First off, I'm fairly sure quad procs are a byproduct of two simultaneous procs messing up by triggering the main hand twice when it should be main hand/off hand or vice versa, and the rate of quad procs isn't nearly as high as you'd suggest. For two equal speed weapons the odds of this are only around 4% of your overall swings, or 20% of your WF swings. I don't know which hand prioritizes, but if it's the main hand as it should be this is only a loss of 1/3 of your WF damage per quad proc. At a rate of 20% the removal of quad procs is only about 7% of WF damage, and this is only if you had identical speed weapons where you'd see this occur a lot. Quadding isn't a huge contribution in comparison to just getting a second WF proc off even if the MH/OH procs were correct. My initial calculations were around a 10-12% overall DPS loss, I think.
Back on the topic of enhancement gear, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of gear available to us right now?
I've been casually running 5 mans and heroics for the past few weeks, picking up whatever I could here or there. I got a few nice pieces of loot, but I expected there to be much better out there. So I go onto thottbot and look up loot by item levels, and I have never been so disappointed in my life. As far as PvE is concerned, faction exhaulted items and quest blues are higher item levels (and better statswise) than our T4 gear.
I know they're about to nerf our WF dps, so I was hoping I could close the gap by increasing ap/crit rate through gear. Now that doesn't really seem possible, and it looks like I'm going to have to overstack consumables to make up the difference.
I'm fairly sure quad procs are a byproduct of two simultaneous procs messing up by triggering the main hand twice when it should be main hand/off hand or vice versa, and the rate of quad procs isn't nearly as high as you'd suggest.
I did a short amount of testing using WF5/WF4 last night and I was getting quads approximately once every three WF procs. This may be an artifact of using two weapons with identical speeds, however, so that may account for why I've seen more than others (and I'll admit to a relatively small sample size for my tests as well).
Myul, you're right, I did reverse the multipliers. 40% of overall damage would be reduced by 1/3 and again by 90% (due to a 10% lower proc rate), or 12% loss in overall DPS (again, assuming the 1/3 multiplier was correct, which isn't supported by my limited testing). Sounds pretty similar to what your friend experienced. (Of note, while that only included white and WF damage, he also wasn't dealing with glancing blows, so I think that it's largely a wash in overall DPS reduction when extrapolating to a boss fight).
Anyhow, I stand corrected. 10% is probably a lot more accurate, but that's still a pretty significant amount of DPS lost.
Discounting shaman tier 4 is a mistake. Unless you're the type who is willing to wear leather.
Some Int on my gear I can live with, mana/5 is ok too, but the amount of +damage on our enhancement T4/T5 just makes me want to barf. It is such a ridiculous and gratuitous waste of item budget that it makes me mad just typing this. Earth Shock comes out to about 10% of my damage; it's on a 6sec cooldown, scales with 43% of +damage, and gets only 150% crits - so what does that make the effective return on +damage from gear? I dunno exactly, but it's pretty fucking small. Almost ANY other stat would be preferable in its place.
Oh and before anyone starts, the miniscule increase it gives to LHW isn't worth spit either. Cyclone harness has +121 spell damage total - so that's +52 on a LHW. If I wanted to boost my healing while in Enhancement gear, I'd rather just equip a Totem of the Plains and get +79, thanks!
Some Int on my gear I can live with, mana/5 is ok too, but the amount of +damage on our enhancement T4/T5 just makes me want to barf. It is such a ridiculous and gratuitous waste of item budget that it makes me mad just typing this. Earth Shock comes out to about 10% of my damage; it's on a 6sec cooldown, scales with 43% of +damage, and gets only 150% crits - so what does that make the effective return on +damage from gear? I dunno exactly, but it's pretty fucking small. Almost ANY other stat would be preferable in its place.
Oh and before anyone starts, the miniscule increase it gives to LHW isn't worth spit either. Cyclone harness has +121 spell damage total - so that's +52 on a LHW. If I wanted to boost my healing while in Enhancement gear, I'd rather just equip a Totem of the Plains and get +79, thanks!
Using at least two of the tier 4 is worth it, just for the totem str boost for your party. Tier 4 chest blows the Kara mail one out of the water (tier 4 helm is on par with maulgar as well), and good luck wrastling the leather SSC one from your rogues anytime soon.
So lets theory craft. A group of 5, includes a bear, enh shaman, two sword rogues, and a warrior. Three get 2 ap from the 12 Str, which is even more with BoK/UR(can't comment on the imp SoE talent and the 2pc yet). Two get only 1ap per str. 96 more AP for the group? Seems nice to me, especially when your rogues grab the trinket off of Gruul along with blade flurry/snd/heroism. Just keep in mind your goal as an enh shaman isn't just maxing your damage, but maxing the raid's dps.
It is obvious that not every tier 4 peice of every set is intended to be the best possibility for the slot, or the best armor type (mail vs leather).
Last edited by Igniter : 03/27/07 at 5:52 PM.
Reason: edited out Bok/UR from the AP total
Using at least two of the tier 4 is worth it, just for the totem str boost for your party. Tier 4 chest blows the Kara mail one out of the water (tier 4 helm is on par with maulgar as well), and good luck wrastling the leather SSC one from your rogues anytime soon.
So lets theory craft. A group of 5, includes a bear, enh shaman, two sword rogues, and a warrior. Three get three get the 12 str, which is even more with BoK/UR. Two get only 1ap per str. 96 more AP for the group? Seems nice to me, especially when your rogues grab the trinket off of Gruul along with blade flurry/snd/heroism. Just keep in mind your goal as an enh shaman isn't just maxing your damage, but maxing the raid's dps.
Why would you use either the t4 helm or maulgar's warhelm? Stalker's Helmet of Second Sight and Desolation (counting half the set bonus) are both better options in that slot in my opinion. And I already buff my group plenty - I'm not convinced that an extra 12 or 24 AP per group member is worth losing 20 or more hit rating for. If I were convinced that it was worth using two cyclone pieces it would be the gauntlets and the chest. Good thing I get to bid against all the rogues and pallies for the chest too! It just irks me knowing how much better those pieces could be if they took that +damage and turned it into +hit, +crit, even mana/5, or some combination thereof.
It is obvious that not every tier 4 peice of every set is intended to be the best slot possible, or the best armor type (mail vs leather).
Why the fuck not? Why can priests, warlocks, mages, rogues (except for the shoulders, natch!), warriors, and hunters all have sets that don't have item budget wasted on useless stats, but we can't? I'm not asking for completely optimal stat distribution, just don't waste item budget, that's all.
Why would you use either the t4 helm or maulgar's warhelm? Stalker's Helmet of Second Sight and Desolation (counting half the set bonus) are both better options in that slot in my opinion. And I already buff my group plenty - I'm not convinced that an extra 12 or 24 AP per group member is worth losing 20 or more hit rating for. If I were convinced that it was worth using two cyclone pieces it would be the gauntlets and the chest. Good thing I get to bid against all the rogues and pallies for the chest too! It just irks me knowing how much better those pieces could be if they took that +damage and turned it into +hit, +crit, even mana/5, or some combination thereof.
Why the fuck not? Why can priests, warlocks, mages, rogues (except for the shoulders, natch!), warriors, and hunters all have sets that don't have item budget wasted on useless stats, but we can't? I'm not asking for completely optimal stat distribution, just don't waste item budget, that's all.
Don't get me wrong, I despise the stats spend on +dmg, I'm just saying the set, especially the chest, has some value to it. It just irks me how some people can't see the bigger picture, like putting in a nice ap speed meta, allowing 12 agi boots over 6.
But yeah, it is a matter of personal opinion, when stats are this close:
+11 Agility
Blue Socket
Blue Socket
Equip: Increases attack power by 10.
Equip: Restores 4 mana per 5 sec.
101 Armor
+19 Stamina
+18 Intellect
Meta Socket
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 27.
(12 str for party not added in)
Your mentioning nonhybrid classes and thus defeating your own point by standard class design.
I'd have thought this discussion was flogged to death already, but oh well;
Check the stats on the resto and elemental sets. See any strength? See any AP? THAT would have been the same logic.
The 12 extra strength is fairly negligable in terms of DPS boost. 96 AP extra for a near-optimal party? Divide by 14 and you get the added party dps. Yeah. DPS warriors raid buffed have what? 3K AP? I'm sure they'll notice that extra 24...
The real shortfall of the set is the low amount of hit and crit. But I might get the shoulders.
Meanwhile; anyone found a decent wrist out there yet? I'm beginning to think a random suffix 'of the soldier' on a blue or purple is our best option.
I see the flaw in my counterargument, the point I was making was that other classes do not get discounts off their items and thus have more streamlined stats for that particular role. Now the resto set doe indeed have no strength but whether it is negligible or not shocks do contribute to our dps. I cannot say if the designer himself planned for our + damage to be used for healing but I think they wanted to avoid overinflating our enhancement set's stats with AP/Crit/Hit thus keeping us in line of whatever dps portfolio we are supposed to fill. Again I see the flaw in my reasoning.
96 AP extra for a near-optimal party? Divide by 14 and you get the added party dps.
No, that's the amount of dps your party would gain from just auto-attacking(no special abilities), assuming their attacks never missed, crit or glanced.
03/23/07, 4:08 PM
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