[Warrior] MT itemization theory

zang1983 · 03/01/07, 10:52 AM

First of all, sorry if I missed an existing warrior itemization thread somewhere, but I *think* I looked all over

Anyway. From what I've gathered, stamina and armor are the most important stats as a MT (after 490 def ofc), but how much can I gimp my dodge/parry/block before it's too much?

Lately I've been trying to exchange my mitigation gear to stamina, reasoning shield block is still king for avoiding those crushings and nasty burst damage strings.

But for example, Prince did quite a few crushings when we killed him, because of him hitting 3+ times during a shield block cooldown. (Wiped once to this, but I had lower hp then - just over 15k fully buffed.) I was thinking, maybe if I up my dodge and parry again, he'd be less likely to hit me on all of those 3+ attacks. If i dodge/parry the first or second attack, I can avoid that crushing on the 3rd, cause I would still have a block charge left on that activated shield block.

Maybe I just had some bad luck with 3+ hits taken and 3rd randomly being a crushing.

I realize relying on hoping to dodge/parry kinda sucks, but with high values maybe you CAN rely on it more...

Or maybe the answer is just "get more hp" again..?

Current unbuffed stats are:

12750 armor
12846 health
510 defense
18.24% dodge
17.86% parry
20.33% block

Atm my tanking stats priorities are:
Defense to 490
Stamina
Armor
Dodge/Parry (dodge requires less rating per %, but parry reduces swing time)
Block Value
Block Rating

If someone can suggest some values I should be aiming for I'd greatly appriciate that.
Other thoughts and how you value your tanking stats are ofc of great help too.

Uziel · 03/01/07, 11:46 AM

You can drop your defense down 20 points. Personally, I will not go below 25% shield block value. We have very similar stats except I have 5 more shield block. Are you protection specc'd?

Shiftir · 03/01/07, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Uziel

You can drop your defense down 20 points. Personally, I will not go below 25% shield block value. We have very similar stats except I have 5 more shield block. Are you protection specc'd?

http://armory.wow-europe.com/#charac...&n=Wakarimasen

Yea he is

zang1983 · 03/01/07, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Uziel

You can drop your defense down 20 points.

Yes, that's what I'm trying to do. Replace that defense with more stamina/armor as well as some dodge and parry rating.

Originally Posted by Uziel

Personally, I will not go below 25% shield block value. We have very similar stats except I have 5 more shield block. Are you protection specc'd?

Is there any reason why you want more block rating (not value, I assume)? To me, in theory it seems like the worst tanking stat. It's applied in the roll system after your other defensive stats (dodge+parry) so most of the time, when spamming shield block, your base chance to block could be 0 and you wouldn't notice a difference.

diospadre · 03/01/07, 12:09 PM

When you have 25% block and use shield block you cannot be crushed.

Riot · 03/01/07, 12:12 PM

I think you're going down the right path. 490 defense, after that it should be all gravy. Get that HP/Armor up!

zang1983 · 03/01/07, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by diospadre

When you have 25% block and use shield block you cannot be crushed.

While this is true, it's also true that if I have 20% total dodge+parry+block(doesn't matter if it's 5% dodge/15% parry/0% block or 0/0/20 or whatever) and use shield block I cannot be crushed either. The difference between dodge/parry and block is that I mitigate a full hit by dodging or parrying, and only a small amount of the hit with a block, making block a lot worse.

You can read up on this here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table

Kalman · 03/01/07, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by zang1983

While this is true, it's also true that if I have 20% total dodge+parry+block(doesn't matter if it's 5% dodge/15% parry/0% block or 0/0/20 or whatever) and use shield block I cannot be crushed either. The difference between dodge/parry and block is that I mitigate a full hit by dodging or parrying, and only a small amount of the hit with a block, making block a lot worse.

You can read up on this here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table

The theory is 25% total mitigation, not 20%, and there is some argument as to the truth of that theory.

zang1983 · 03/01/07, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kalman

The theory is 25% total mitigation, not 20%, and there is some argument as to the truth of that theory.

Well, actually it's 20%, since I don't count mobs 5% miss towards your mitigation.

Okijin · 03/01/07, 12:59 PM

Seems like what we are going for with this itemization theory is to become bears, We won't ever have more armor or HP than will they. However (aside from not being crushed) the unique value warriors have in mitigation is greater pure mitigation. We can very easily get over 40% pure mitigation where as getting that extra 5% mitigation in the form of armor require much greater sacrifice. I realize that armor has the added benefit of smoothing out spikes but, with over 15k buffed there are really no spike over 6-8k so there should still be ample time to heal up.

my question is why armor over pure mitigation (parry, dodge)?

zang1983 · 03/01/07, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Okijin

Seems like what we are going for with this itemization theory is to become bears, We won't ever have more armor or HP than will they. However (aside from not being crushed) the unique value warriors have in mitigation is greater pure mitigation. We can very easily get over 40% pure mitigation where as getting that extra 5% mitigation in the form of armor require much greater sacrifice. I realize that armor has the added benefit of smoothing out spikes but, with over 15k buffed there are really no spike over 6-8k so there should still be ample time to heal up.

my question is why armor over pure mitigation (parry, dodge)?

You pretty much answered yourself. Armor is easier on your healers, they know what to expect, and you won't take as spiky damage. Dodge/parry is still luck based, to some extent, and less reliable. In fights where the boss have high burst dmg and high dps healers are pretty much bound to spam healing you, and if you dodge and parry an attack here and there that will just result in overhealing anyway.

Whiteknight · 03/01/07, 6:37 PM

Originally Posted by zang1983

Well, actually it's 20%, since I don't count mobs 5% miss towards your mitigation.

No.

As Kalman and Dios both pointed out, the theory is that you require 100% block in order to mitigate crushing. This requires 25% base block and shield block active.

Nobody has yet provided a satisfactory explanation of why this must be the case - especially considering it does not fit with the current working theory of single hit table for most combat rolls, but it is the only result that matches all the evidence so far.

20% block rate isn't enough - get 5% more.

suicuique · 03/02/07, 6:17 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteknight

No.

As Kalman and Dios both pointed out, the theory is that you require 100% block in order to mitigate crushing. This requires 25% base block and shield block active.

Nobody has yet provided a satisfactory explanation of why this must be the case - especially considering it does not fit with the current working theory of single hit table for most combat rolls, but it is the only result that matches all the evidence so far.

20% block rate isn't enough - get 5% more.

Can you point me to a discussion about this theory?
I hear this a lot in recent discussions, but I'm somewhere reluctant to believe that I need 25% block chance to push crushing off the table.
It just doesnt match my experience and logic of the one table theory.

I'd love to hear more about that or see some numbers.
TIA

zang1983 · 03/02/07, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteknight

No.

As Kalman and Dios both pointed out, the theory is that you require 100% block in order to mitigate crushing. This requires 25% base block and shield block active.

Nobody has yet provided a satisfactory explanation of why this must be the case - especially considering it does not fit with the current working theory of single hit table for most combat rolls, but it is the only result that matches all the evidence so far.

20% block rate isn't enough - get 5% more.

It's not necessarily 20% block, but 20% total parry+dodge+block, according to http://www.wowwiki.com/Attack_table.

Quote from there: (This precedence order is from Blizzard, and as such is accurate.)

So you're saying wowwiki is wrong, and Blizzard posted false information?

I would like to be pointed to a discussion about this as well, if that's the case. Thx.

Whiteknight · 03/02/07, 6:59 AM

I really wouldn't take wowwiki to be the gospel of what is true. It's a useful resource, but often inaccurate. I should also point out that the 'blizzard representative' referenced in the wowwiki article made a comment specific to crits only. The vast majority of the wowwiki article is derived directly from various threads on these forums (cited in the article).

Anway, there are a *lot* of threads on this particular topic here, but one I particularly remember is this:

Shield block negating crits

This thread includes a combat log parse of a player getting crushed with shield block active and having a native block rate of 24.75%.

The thread generally comes to the consensus that 25% is the 'magic' number but nobody really puts forward a definitive explanation of why that must be the answer.