[Warrior] MT itemization theory - Page 2

suicuique · 03/02/07, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteknight

Anway, there are a *lot* of threads on this particular topic here, but one I particularly remember is this:

Shield block negating crits

This thread includes a combat log parse of a player getting crushed with shield block active and having a native block rate of 24.75%.

I know this thread ... and find it inconclusive in regards to native shield block chance >25% needed or not.

The combat log parse could have exhibit client/server latency issues. The crushing came WAY too close to the timestamp where shield block buff faded.

Does anyone with a native block chance of < 25 % have a combatlog where a crushing comes directly (read: 3 sec at most) after activating shield block?
THAT would be way more enlightening.
E.g having just 15% block chance (or lower) would leave a "hole" of 10% chance to be critted/crushed (Im not asuming crit immunity here, as I want to get the native block chance as low as possible) even with shield block active.

Should be not to difficult to find such a combatlog.

But I myself never witnessed such an event happening. Therefore I conclude *for myself* that active shield block eliminates crits/crushings when total avoidance+mitigation rate (i.e. miss+parry+dodge+native block) eclipses 25%.

Ranalis · 03/02/07, 9:43 AM

Speaking of crushing blows and mitigation:

I've been having a discussion with another prot tank regarding the usefulness (or lack thereof) of Anticipation as a talent if it is not required to hit 490D (we've been working under the assumption that 490 is the threshold for functional crit immunity, but I'm going to parse my combat log from our next KZ run to measure my actual incoming crit percentage on bosses like Romulo). The basis of the argument is the common assumption that crushes blows can only be mitigated so much by +D rating - I've understood for a long time that 5D/player level (or 350D at level 70) is the maximum that can possibly be applied to reducing crushing blows. He argues that because Anticipation actually changes the maximum base Defense in the Skills pane (to 370/370, rather than 350/350), it actually allows 20 additional defense to reduce/remove crushing blows.

Obviously, if one can reach 25% block and keep shield block up semi-constantly, this is a moot point. There are, however, bosses who attack fast enough that even shield block doesn't stop all attacks, and it would be useful to know whether the additional defense is actually doing something once you get to the 490 level. Does anyone know what the true "max" D that can applied to mitigating crushes is? Has a test been done to demonstrate a difference?

vorda · 03/02/07, 9:59 AM

I've seen the 'anticipation increases your maximum defense' argrument concerning crushing blows often, but from what I've heard this is just a display method.

Whish I could show you some tests on it though, sorry.

Nezralix · 03/02/07, 10:11 AM

It would be easy to test what the situation is with Shield Block. Find any random mob, take off any and all block gear (DPS gear will work), and then go spam shield block against it. If you get hit, then you would have the chance to be crushed against a boss.

Your parry is 10% and your block is 10% just from talents, so your your total avoidance+block is definitely above 25% no matter what.

zepi · 03/02/07, 10:28 AM

This has probably been discussed in other threads, assuming you have 25% block rating and shieldblock up, can you still dodge or parry the next hit, or is whole hit-table filled with block-outcomes?

Mordinm · 03/02/07, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by zepi

This has probably been discussed in other threads, assuming you have 25% block rating and shieldblock up, can you still dodge or parry the next hit, or is whole hit-table filled with block-outcomes?

Block is thought to come just before cirt/crush/hit in the table. So you can still parry, dodge, and be missed with 100% chance to block.

Cannings · 03/02/07, 11:52 AM

Getting off the block topic slightly as the thread is based towards entire MT Itemization, i'm currently testing stacking as much avoidance as possible all sockets that aren't blue are +parry or +dodge or +defence, but that said I am still wearing the styleens/lgg combo as I'm yet to find better tanking trinkets.

We had the +def trinket drop from Hydross but i'm in 2 minds wether the +35 equip defence and on use of +12% to all avoidance (i didn't work out that figure myself) is worth me losing that valuable +5% block on styleens

Emeraude · 03/02/07, 11:55 AM

Heh, when WoW Classic went to 2.0 and the mobs @ Karazhan spawned(level 70, Skull to a level 60 player) I went out there in full Conq and a sword/shield on.

My stats were downright horrible, I had something like 6-7% dodge, 8% Parry, 13% block, hell it might have been worse then that. Either way against mobs 10 levels above me, I never had a single crushing blow break through shield block.

Side Note: I never got crit either, it seemed the mob's need to crush took priority over critting.

Take that data for what you will gentlemen, or perhaps one of you still have a level 60 alt you'd like to experiment with.

Okijin · 03/02/07, 12:20 PM

I understand the smoothing effects benefit, but my point is that you get much greater total mitigation from dodge/parry than you can from stacking dodge/parry while ignoring armor (since armor is built in to the dodge/parry pieces), and since most of the armor items you can stack have a paltry few hundred armor (violet signet ect) where-as you can get some pretty serious dodge/parry in these slots if you are not selecting on armor.

While your mitigation will be spikier (this is of course relatively more spikey) you will have more mitigation in total. Smoothness doesn't seem to be the end-all be-all you could strip off all your dodge, parry and have very steady damage intake, like a warlock with a sacced void walker, but it seems like you are actually making your healers job harder.

Also i wonder when stacking armor how much more armor do you have than a warrior who picks up the good purples but looks for dodge/parry rather than armor in her items.

Stein · 03/02/07, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Emeraude

Side Note: I never got crit either, it seemed the mob's need to crush took priority over critting.

Wouldn't this then completely eliminate the need for defense as a stat? (mage/shaman asking, so go easy on me

)

Jayde · 03/02/07, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Cannings

We had the +def trinket drop from Hydross but i'm in 2 minds wether the +35 equip defence and on use of +12% to all avoidance (i didn't work out that figure myself) is worth me losing that valuable +5% block on styleens

It seems to me that Scarab of Displacement destroys Styleen's. Displacement gives 1.6% additional mitigation due to the 10 defense skill gained (if I'm remember my formulas right) which, IMO, is substantially more valuable than +block% which is rarely ever used.

Originally Posted by Stein

Wouldn't this then completely eliminate the need for defense as a stat? (mage/shaman asking, so go easy on me

)

Not exactly, since Defense trickles down to Dodge/Parry/Block/Miss% it is still a pretty useful stat even if you are crit-capped.

Stein · 03/02/07, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Okijin

stacking dodge/parry while ignoring armor

Isn't dodge WAY cheaper than parry?

Originally Posted by Jayde

Not exactly, since Defense trickles down to Dodge/Parry/Block/Miss% it is still a pretty useful stat even if you are crit-capped.

Wouldn't straight dodge/block be cheaper?

(edit: meant...less rating per 1%:

Dodge Rating: 18.9 rating grants 1% dodge
Parry Rating: 31.5 rating grants 1% parry
Block Rating: 7.9 rating grants 1% block chance
Defense Rating: 2.4 rating gratns 1 defense skill)

soo....60 defense rating gives 1% block/parry/dodge/miss/anti-crit...3% raw avoidance. cheaper than parry, slightly worse than dodge when you're blocked capped. could you get to the block cap on pure defense? heh...i bet this would crit cap you as well...ignoring block.

Stein · 03/02/07, 1:11 PM

Deadmerlin · 03/02/07, 2:04 PM

I know Defense adds .04% to Block, Dodge and Parry. But can anybody give me an idea on how it reduces your chance to be crit on a boss versus equal level trash? Thanks in advance

CD · 03/02/07, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Okijin

I understand the smoothing effects benefit, but my point is that you get much greater total mitigation from dodge/parry than you can from stacking dodge/parry while ignoring armor (since armor is built in to the dodge/parry pieces), and since most of the armor items you can stack have a paltry few hundred armor (violet signet ect) where-as you can get some pretty serious dodge/parry in these slots if you are not selecting on armor.

While your mitigation will be spikier (this is of course relatively more spikey) you will have more mitigation in total. Smoothness doesn't seem to be the end-all be-all you could strip off all your dodge, parry and have very steady damage intake, like a warlock with a sacced void walker, but it seems like you are actually making your healers job harder.

Healers only have the luxury of looking at incomming damage and cancelling heals when there's a buffer between the HP of a tank and the biggest spike he can face. If, as above, a tank has 15k hp and the biggest spike is 8k there will be plenty of opportunities for healers to react. If, however you do a fight like Maulgar where there's very little room at all between total hp and the highest spike healers will be forced to cast heals regardless of whether you are hit or not.
Stacking HP and armour will give a bigger buffer zone and make healers- and yourself as a tank- more able to react to damage and take advantage of your avoidance.