Well i'm glad you all agree with me
I have mongoose on my king's defender, it most certainely procs just like crusader.
I was actually planning on throwing weapon chain on The Sun Eater so I can use it for fights where I need to up my avoidance and also fights that I need the disarm i.e. the ethreal pulls on the way to chess.

GG disenchanted my stronghold gauntlets around lvl 65

Heres a question to throw out at other warriors. I'm using a King's Defender now because I decided to take the route of Armorsmith. Everyone else and their mom is going weaponsmith because the weapons are "so cool" and you can get one handers and two handers. I went the other route.

As a MT I think that the Bulwark of Kings could be an amazing tool for tanking. I do not need the +def on my chestpiece so I can shove in 3 solid stars for an 87 stamina breastplate that gives me a huge boost of armor over other BPs and some nice hit/crit for a slight threat gen boost along with the nice survival tool of a temp max health boost.

Has anyone else who MTs actually been doing this or considered using the breastplate? I was hoping for some feedback before I actually craft the thing this week.

Darkmgl, I have crafted my breastplate and use it for tanking FWIW.

I really like it, although I did gem it up with +stam/+def gems as opposed to all +stam in all slots. Once I get the necessary nethers I'll definitely upgrade it and possibly do the all +stam gems then as I'll likely have replaced some other bits of gear to offset the +def loss.

I'm using the Bulwark of Kings (the 10-nether-required one). It's socketed with +STA gems.

I love it. You do have to make up the defense elsewhere (especially if you want 1-2 trinkets which don't give defense, like Argussian Compass or Moroes' Pocketwatch), but it's a huge HP and armor boost over just about everything until Panzar'thar Breastplate (which I might consider wearing instead).

Making up the lost defense is really not that hard unless you're upgrading from that def-heavy Aldor BP. I didn't actively go out of my way to make it up, and IIRC I hovered at 485-489 def for a while before I upgraded one of my weaker slots and bumped up over 490. Respeccing to get Anticipation if you don't have it would probably make up the loss as well.

edit: Armory is showing my tanking gear now if you're interested, except for Big Bad Wolf's Paw (which is usually King's Defender). Most of those Kara purples are pretty recent and it's totally possible to find blues with similar (or more) amounts of defense.

Bulwark of Kings is exceptional for tanking and if I was MT'ing for my guild instead of just whacking 2 to cast frostbolts I'd probably wear it over Panzar'thar with +12sta gems socketed. Integrated LGG, very high stamina and extra high armor makes it premium tanking stuff imo.

Especially when you can easily counter the def loss in other slots due to low def "cap" requirement.

Yeah, thanks for all the feedback. I was considering using it over the Panzar Thar and Warbringer BP and probably will now. I'm also hoping they might add a couple of more armorsmithing exclusive formulas since the weapon disciplines get one handers and two handers. A crafted tiered shield would be neat!

Don't wanna bump a dead thread, but this seems like the best place for it! I was thinking about the armor/HP vs. avoidance debate last night. I decided I'd take some of the crap I've collected in my travels (Shermanar Great-Ring, Thoriumweave Cloak, Timelapse Shard, Argussian Compass are the notable swaps) and swap out some of my usual "avoidance" stuff (Elementium Band of the Sentry, Devilshark Cape, Moroes' Lucky Pocketwatch, Adamantite Figurine).


Setup 1 (avoidance):

12954 HP
13422 armor
498 defense
20.22% dodge
16.74% parry
18.08% block
~250 block value
0 resilience

Setup 2 (armor/hp):

13824 HP
13947 armor
476 defense
15.19% dodge
15.86% parry
17.20% block
~210 block value
23 resilience


Notes:

1) Block values are estimated. I'm going a screenshot of the TankPoints display for my stats, and for some reason block value is always incorrect.

2) Both setups are crit-immune to common bosses. The 23 resilience makes the second one crit immune.

3) Some of the intangibles being traded off aren't represented here. Setup 1 has Pocketwatch/Adamantite Figurine, while setup 2 has Argussian Compass/Timelapse Shard.

I'm curious what people think. A lot of people have been talking up socketing 12 stam gems, how avoidance can lull your healers into a false sense of security, etc.

Would you trade (or would you want your tank to trade) roughly 5% dodge, 1% parry, 1% block, and 40 block value for ~900hp and 500ac? I don't think I would, especially when the utility of the two trinkets is considered.

In terms of stat valuation: every time you socket a 12 stam gem instead of an 8 dodge rating gem, you are trading .43% dodge for 120hp. If you're someone who does that, you value ~275HP > 1% to dodge.

My HP/armor set trades 6% to dodge and parry for 900HP. Is 150HP > 1% to dodge/parry? How do the non-avoidance, non-HP stats (basically 500 armor for 1% to block and 40 block value) come into play?

If you think my hp/armor gear sucks - and yes, a lot of it does - and that this comparison isn't even worth bringing up, then consider this an intuition pump: how much avoidance do you have to lose before you say "okay, HP is king and all, but that is SO not worth it"?

I would go for around 20% dodge, 17% parry, 25% block and 490defence before I would go for hp.
The 25% block is important because then it is not possible to get crushed with shield block up. I mean this is the same as if you would go with 488defence you would feel the crits coming then. So a 25% block is needed as much as 490defence is almost the same thing.

I would defently go for your setup 1 but with alot more block.

With all of the debate about deciding between avoidance stats and pure stamina, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the delicious 45 stamina trinkets from engineering. The trinkets are Goblin Rocket Launcher for goblin engineers and Gnomish Poultryizer for gnomish engineers. They are not unique so two can be equipped at once.

While I am firmly in the stamina and armor camp for current content, I still evaluate each gear choice in terms of how much avoidance I'm giving up per stamina. Past 490 defense skill, I make any trades of one dodge rating or one defense rating per one stamina without hesitation. It gets more complicated in cases like Boots of Elusion against Battlescar Boots with 12 stamina gems. When I saw the engineering trinkets I saw a great opportunity to get a huge chunk of stamina at a ratio easily better than one to one with the dodge rating and defense rating trinkets I was equipping. It took less than a day for me to get engineering to 350 and craft two rocket launchers. I've loved them ever since. The use effect appears to have a 50 yard range and can be nice for pulling.

Using these trinkets I'm sitting at 15240 unbuffed health and still have several attainable upgrades left. Without consumables I can break 20000 health on raids. This is without making some of the bigger avoidance to stamina trades I could make.

In current content it seems that huge damage spikes are a regular occurrence, making gearing with heavy stamina and armor a must. I call this gearing for the worst case that is unavoidable given any attainable amount of avoidance stats. However, the frequency of the worst case is reduced with exponential improvements from avoidance stat gains. This makes me hesitant to sacrifice everything in favor of stamina and armor. That said I'm curious to hear some opinions on the following choices for tank gearing. Consider the choices to be for main tanking in cutting edge content with huge incoming damage. It can be particularly difficult when armor is involved in the trade off since armor can be considered situational as well. A tank's choices in each of these cases is a good indication of how they value different tanking stats:

Boots of Elusion or Battlescar Boots with 12 stamina gems - despite the relatively low stamina, Boots of Elusion offer a huge boost in avoidance that's hard for me to ignore. Changing from Elusion to Battlescar offers 19 stamina 16 strength and 18 parry rating at the cost of 1 defense rating and 36 dodge rating. Since the 18 parry rating is worth less avoidance than 11 dodge rating, I decided to side with the Elusion and seek my stamina gains in more efficient places.

Warbringer Handguards or Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden with 12 stamina gems - Changing from Warbringer Handguards to Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden offers 24 stamina 15 shield block rating and 33 shield block value at the cost of 72 armor (agility included) 14 strength 17 agility (effective 10.7 dodge rating and 11.4 critical strike rating) 6 defense rating 26 parry rating (avoidance equivalent to 15.6 dodge rating). I'm already looking at worse than a one to one dodge rating (or equivalent) to stamina trade and the armor is what ultimately tipped me to the Warbringer Handguards. The shield block value makes this an attractive option for a threat oriented set though.

Wrynn Dynasty Greaves with 12 stamina gems or Warbringer Legguards - This has probably been my toughest trade to consider. Changing from Wrynn Dynasty Greaves to Warbringer Legguards offers 93 armor (agility included) 1 strength 20 agility (effective 12.6 dodge rating and 13.3 critical strike rating) 6 defense rating 6 dodge rating at the cost of 29 stamina. Without the armor difference I'd easily pick the Wrynn Dynasty Graves, but the armor difference makes me lean slightly towards the Warbringer Legguards. I'll definately pass on these unless no one else wants the Leggings of the Fallen Defender though.

Glove enchants - 15 agility (30 armor and effective 9.5 dodge rating and 9.9 critical strike rating) or 8 sta or 2% threat. I like the 15 agility as an all around mitigation/avoidance/threat enchant, though I'm tempted to throw 2% threat on my Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden, combine it with Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600 and use it as my threat set for whenever I can afford to give up the tanking stats for threat.

Weapon enchants - 15 agility or mongoose. Mongoose offers eight times the benefit of 15 agility when it's up with a haste bonus to boot. My desire to gear for the worst case makes me hesitant to give up the constant 15 agility, but mongoose offers a huge average benefit that is becoming harder and harder for me to ignore.

Cloak enchants - 120 armor, 12 dodge rating or 12 agility (24 armor and effective 7.6 dodge rating and 8.0 critical strike rating). I ended up going for the 120 armor due to the consistent spike survivability it offers.

Another random observation is that I feel agility is often overlooked and undervalued in common perception. It's definitely not the first stat I go for, but the benefits it offers are welcomed on my gear. It is especially competitive as a tanking stat once blessing of kings is factored in.

I have *never* gotten a crushing blow with Shield Block on (at 18.08% block - setup 1 is what I actually do tank in) and I don't believe I've ever seen anyone else conclusively demonstrate one.

I believe you only need 25% dodge+block+parry+miss combined in order to mitigate crushing blows with shield block up. See various threads discussing this subject.


I actually think they came up in the Warrior trinkets thread. To be honest it seems like tanking engineers are the only ones happy with the profession at the moment.

I do think your "avoidance vs. stamina" item listings sort of illustrate what's absurd about the stam vs. avoidance debate. (No offense intended or anything, as it's a good comparison.) In most guilds with a system that distributes loot to any degree, people won't get to choose between the two options you have listed. They'll probably just end up taking whichever one drops first for them, and then passing on subsequent items because their guildmates will frown on them for taking two purples for the same slot before someone else even has one, it will cost them DKP, or they won't be able to roll on other items in the instance. Heck, your system itself may just prevent it (can't buy upgrades/sidegrades with your points unless no one wants to pay full price for the item, or something). Most people just don't have the luxury to make the choices you're making (well, maybe the Wrynn Dynasty Greaves vs. Warbringer -- though even then, if you're in a DKP system, you probably want to save your points for something that's a more sizable upgrade).

With that said, I agree with most of your analysis. I think for the legs debate, you have to keep in mind that the 2/5 warbringer bonus, while certainly not GOOD, is added mitigation, and in a close comparison like that it might be the deciding factor.

Damn tauren!

I am just too lazy to drop Mining and skill up Engineering for the 45sta trinkets. I also don't think that 500 more HP makes a big difference on a whole lot of fights once you are past 20k. Of course it would still be nice to have the option, but a compass + one of the other various tanking trinkets is good enough for me.

Boots: Unfortunately I still don't have either, but I would prefer to get Elusion.

Gloves: Warbringer for better overall stats.

Legs: Warbringer but here it's a lot closer. 4pc set bonus is a very marginal threat boost, that also adds a little value to it. (not looking like a gimp in green is priceless)

Glove enchant: I like 15agi as the better overall enchant as well. 8sta is not that far behind though, and it's a LOT cheaper.

Weapon enchant: Mongoose seems a lot better to me, it really procs quite often. 30AC doesn't add help much in the worst case scenario.

Cloak: I have been swapping between Devilshark with +12 dodge and Gilded Thorium with +120AC. Generally I prefer Devilshark, but for 'worst case scenario' equipment, I would use Gilded Thorium.

Far Too Much Time Spent On Wowhead: Lvl 70 Preraid Tank Plate. is one thread where you can find this info. I think there's another one that has very similar info.

I’ve noticed that a lot of MT warriors itemize heavily for block value. I can’t seem to work out the appeal of this.

If the first goal of a MT is to prevent being 1-shotted (or 2 or 3 shotted), then stamina wins out. As I understand it, 1 point of strength in your itemization budget is equivalent to 1.5 stamina or 1.54 block value. With shield mastery you would need to sacrifice 15 hit points for every 2 (1.54*1.3) block value. In order to make block value a preferable stat to stamina, you would need to take 7-8 (blocked) hits before dying or receiving heals for block value to be the preferred stat against burst dps.

As a source of damage reduction (ie: reducing the throughput load on healers), block value loses out to avoidance gear. TankPoints can argue the numbers of this far better than I in this situation.

The only remaining reason seems to be stacking block value for large shield slams. While the extra threat generation and pretty yellow numbers are appealing, both of these effects seem to stray from primary tanking goal: don’t die.

Adding another question into this. Gladiator's Shield Wall vs Aldori Legacy Defender....

I'm currently using a Crest of the Sha'tar and could really use the extra armor from an upgrade as we head into SSC. Aldori hasn't dropped yet in all our Gruul kills and it looks like getting a Gladiator shield should only take 2-4 weeks depending on the team. Any thoughts about what to do?

First of all, the choice is never between block value and stamina. Of course, stamina is the best thing to stack, however after that, armor and block value are really the way to go as an MT. On a boss fight, you're basically going to block every swing that hits you, so adding block value shaves damage off of every time that you get hit, whereas avoidance is something that is nice to have, but it is NOT to be depended on. Block value of course has the ancillary benefit of increasing the damage and threat on your shield slams, but saying that "block value is inferior to avoidance" flat out is a fallacy.

I'd just recommend spending 33 Badges on the shield from G'eras until you get the Aldori Legacy Defender to drop.

Check it out, there's some good stuff in here.

Shield block negating crits

I've been using a Crest of the Sha'tar, I think I prefer it over both the nightbane and the badge shield in this case due to the extra couple hundred hps. The armor loss just seems big at this point in the game, even a fraction of a percent can mean a few hundred less dmg a pop.

Do I Need 25% Block?
No. No. No. Dodge and parry take precedence on the hit table over block, so adding 75% block with Shield Block will not remove them from the table (easily verifiable, just pop up Shield Block and watch yourself dodge and parry even still.) So, what you need is 25% combined dodge+parry+block. Add 75% for Shield Block, and there you go. If you have 25% combined dodge and parry, you don't need any block at all, in fact.

http://evilempireguild.org/guides/block.php

You are contradicting yourself here? Either way, I like badge/NB shield better because the extra AC more than makes up for the stamina loss.

As for the block value vs. avoidance discussion: avoidance also increases your Shield Block uptime, which makes the choice a little harder. But for any threat sensitive fight, block value is the way to go.

A quick question if i may regarding the Warbringer 2 set bonus for those who have it:

Does the Blade Turning bonus of 200 damage absorption take effect as a one shot buff that lasts for 15 seconds or until hit or does it remove 200 damage from each attack that hits you for those 15 seconds?

Its like a mini power word shield, mine seems to do 256 and not 200 too. The buff stays on for 15 seconds and is removed after taking 256 damage, it will not stack up just overwrite itself if you proc it while it is still on. Theres no limit to how often it procs either, it is fun pulling 50 low level mobs and chain proccing it the whole time.