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03/09/07, 9:15 AM
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#151
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Mr. Sandman
Humbalo
Tauren Druid
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Relwin
Guess what? That's how it works at the moment.
After some testing last night I wasn't seeing the double procs on either the mainhand or offhand. However, I was seeing two independent procs each on their own cooldown timers. (WF5/WF4) Swapped to 5/5 and I saw the universal 3 second cooldown again on both hands.
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I was out grinding ogre beads last night with 5/4 and I had one case where I had 4 procs on one hand followed by 4 procs on the other hand about a second later. I had multiple other times where I'd get 4 procs or where I'd get procs from one hand followed by the other in less than 3 seconds. I don't think anything has changed yet.
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03/09/07, 9:43 AM
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#152
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Not enough rage
Gnome Warrior
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by Beck
I just want to ask about what Malan was saying regarding +hit.
Is there an amount of +hit that people strive for whilst enh specced.. or is it generally the more the better.
My stat sheet is currently showing around +6% to hit, Im pretty sure this does not include my talents as I have all the +hit talents. Does this sound like enough or should I be aiming for more? I am duel wield of course.
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(correct me if im wrong here)
Once you are past the 5-6% (?) needed to never miss specials you gain about 1.1-1.3% white damage per 1% hit.
Assuming a dodge rate of 5.6%
im a bit unsure of the miss penalty from DW so im just gonna say 25% (from what i recall it should at least be close to this number)
Lets say your total white dps if all hits always landed was 100.
If you have 5.6% +hit
100-94.4 = dodge
94.4-75 = miss
Adding 1% hit onto this would mean
94.4-76 = miss
And you effectively go from 75 dps to 76 which is an increase by 1.33% (76/75)
Now say you have 24% hit
100-94.4 = dodge
94.4-93.4 = miss
increasing your hit by 1% will make you go from 93.4 dps to 94.4 dps (real cap) which is an increase by 1.07% (94.4/93.4).
Assuming im not talking out of my ass (I hope im not, but you never know) you just have to see how big upgrade your white dps is going to get and put that into relation of how much of your dps is white.
If you get a 1.33% white dps upgrade from 1% hit and your white dps is 50% of your damage the real upgrade is of course 1.33%*0.5 = 0.67%
On top of this you probably have to put any windfury calculations but as im no shaman I cant really help you with that.
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03/09/07, 9:46 AM
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#153
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I prefer the term treasure hunting
Orc Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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Once you are past the 5-6% (?) needed to never miss specials you gain about 1.1-1.3% white damage per 1% hit.
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This number is higher for Shamans due to WF weapon procs causing (in theory) an average of 40% more damage than a normal swing, but Brissa's comparison is pretty accurate otherwise. More hit is better!
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03/09/07, 9:55 AM
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#154
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
This number is higher for Shamans due to WF weapon procs causing (in theory) an average of 40% more damage than a normal swing, but Brissa's comparison is pretty accurate otherwise. More hit is better!
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Yes since the only shaman attack that does not depend on tohit is stormstrike (you only need 5 to make sure SS never misses) and ES and those tend to be around 20% of total DPS, tohit is by far the best stat to have as an enh shaman until you max it out. Unlike rogues and wars where special attacks can usually be somewhere around 50% of your total damage and it only takes 5 hit to make that damage cap out on tohit.
Note that you only need 5% tohit to eliminate the possibility that the WF attack itself will miss (which comes from talents). However since you cannot proc WF on a missed attack your wf can be considered part of your white damage for the purpose of figuring out what tohit does for you (as per brisa's calculation above). All in all, if you already have the crit to be flurried almost all the time and have UR up (in my mind 25ish buffed is about enough), then tohit is better then crit until you hit the cap, even before you consider that getting 1% hit is cheaper then 1% crit.
The cap however is 24% for the miss rate on DW against an equal level mob, so with 9 from talents you'd need 15% hit to reach it.
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03/09/07, 12:10 PM
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#155
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Glass Joe
Human Rogue
Laughing Skull
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Again...you can never make it so your attacks NEVER miss. Even with ~16% hit I get SS and WF misses, although they are admittedly quite rare.
I'm not sure when other melee stats (namely, AP and +crit) begin to scale better than hit rating for shamans...I believe for combat rogues, once you start getting your +hit to somewhere in between 16% and 18%, +crit scales better. Well, that's how it worked in WoW 1.0; I would assume those numbers are slightly smaller in 2.0 since crit has scaled down a bit (for rogues anyway).
For shamans, I would think that the optimal +hit is a little smaller simply due to the fact that nearly half our melee damage comes from WF, which does not suffer from the DW miss rate. But...this is merely a supposition on my part.
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03/09/07, 12:34 PM
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#156
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Jendryn
Again...you can never make it so your attacks NEVER miss. Even with ~16% hit I get SS and WF misses, although they are admittedly quite rare.
I'm not sure when other melee stats (namely, AP and +crit) begin to scale better than hit rating for shamans...I believe for combat rogues, once you start getting your +hit to somewhere in between 16% and 18%, +crit scales better. Well, that's how it worked in WoW 1.0; I would assume those numbers are slightly smaller in 2.0 since crit has scaled down a bit (for rogues anyway).
For shamans, I would think that the optimal +hit is a little smaller simply due to the fact that nearly half our melee damage comes from WF, which does not suffer from the DW miss rate. But...this is merely a supposition on my part.
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Wrong on a number of points. First off with enough tohit you will infact never miss, my WF has no miss over a very long time with my damagemeters, not a single one (data stored over days of playing). Always having a 1% miss chance only applies to spells. You will still be dodged/parried/blocked, but never miss.
Second while WF itself will never miss (with 6% from talents) you cannot proc WF on a miss - so if you missed; you missed your chance to proc WF, hence you lowered your WF damage. So your miss rate directly impacts your wf damage even if WF itself cannot miss. It's not like crit - if your normal attack does not crit, that doesn't mean that WF can't crit. If WF had the DW penalty that would only make hit even more important then it is.
Since only 20% of our damage (SS+ES) does not incur the DW penalty, as opposed to about 50% for rogues and wars (depending on spec), tohit is alot MORE important to us then for them.
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03/09/07, 12:48 PM
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#157
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Glass Joe
Human Rogue
Laughing Skull
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Well, I will still maintain what I said about missing with WF and SS; I am certain they can still miss regardless of how much +hit one has...if only I could find something that confirms this.
Either way, changing the present topic a bit and touching on something you commented on earlier, I would also like to see nonhastened and flurry graphs for both WF and white damage with OH weapons that have 90 or 95% the speed of the MH, since those combos the most viable (in terms of itemization) in the game.
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03/09/07, 1:19 PM
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#158
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I prefer the term treasure hunting
Orc Death Knight
Mal'Ganis
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First off with enough tohit you will infact never miss
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Untrue. There is a very, very small chance to miss no matter how much hit you have. A Hunter in my previous guild with 10% hit reported a miss, and it was the only one he had in a span of several months. I'm reasonably convinced that +hit that reduces your chance to "0" is actually just putting a reduction on your miss chance that essentially adds a digit of significance. 99.9, 99.99, 99.999, etc.
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03/09/07, 1:25 PM
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#159
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Bald Bull
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Originally Posted by Jendryn
Either way, changing the present topic a bit and touching on something you commented on earlier, I would also like to see nonhastened and flurry graphs for both WF and white damage with OH weapons that have 90 or 95% the speed of the MH, since those combos the most viable (in terms of itemization) in the game.
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Also has lines for the effects of a 10% miss rate, which didn't turn out to be very interesting, and lines for 10% haste, where the number of procs does actually go down when hasted for a few speeds, although not by much.
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03/09/07, 2:35 PM
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#160
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Don Flamenco
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Most people believe that when specials miss (SS, hunters, etc) it's just a server reporting error. It was actually a dodge/block/parry/out of range, but came back as miss.
If the miss rate is 0.01% or so, it is close enough to zero to ignore it anyway.
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03/09/07, 2:39 PM
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#161
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POWER = MEAT + OPPORTUNITY = BATTLEWORMS
ChickenArise
Night Elf Warlock
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Pater
Most people believe that when specials miss (SS, hunters, etc) it's just a server reporting error. It was actually a dodge/block/parry/out of range, but came back as miss.
If the miss rate is 0.01% or so, it is close enough to zero to ignore it anyway.
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Where does that idea find support? I agree that ~0 is close enough to 0 for all intents and purposes, I just wonder how people came to this conclusion, why the server might do that, etc. Curiosity, if you will 
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See you, auntie.
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03/09/07, 2:49 PM
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#162
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Apate
Where does that idea find support? I agree that ~0 is close enough to 0 for all intents and purposes, I just wonder how people came to this conclusion, why the server might do that, etc. Curiosity, if you will 
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*shrug* whether it's that or the other theory that it's a .01 or .001 chance (the limit of accuracy for the number or whatever), the point is that to all practical purposes, it's 0. If I had to guess I'd agree with the server messing up, since spells do infact always have a 1% miss chance, so if blizzard wanted that functionality for melee it could have been included, and there is no reason I can think of why the number couldn't be set to 0 if one wanted to.
It's very easy to find something to prove it, run a personal damage meter that lists your misses/parries/blocks/dodges and records them over a long period of time (like kombatstats). If you find a miss on wf or SS, then grats. My data hasn't been reset in probably weeks and I have 0.
Thanks for the graphs, unfortunately it seems to confirm what I was guessing that there is less of a leveling out effect for speeds higher then 2 when your OH has a slightly lower speed then MH (as opposed to same speed or half speed), and slower is always better.
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03/10/07, 12:29 PM
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#163
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Glass Joe
Human Rogue
Laughing Skull
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Thanks for the graph Shalas! <3
One quick question though: is it representing the same damage as the earlier graphs? I noticed it measures "arbitrary damage units" instead of "windfury damage" as before.
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03/10/07, 12:41 PM
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#164
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Bald Bull
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The units are the same, although various minor changes to how the procs are being calculated means that they won't line up perfectly -- the code for the most recent chart consistantly gets numbers 2-3% higher than the initial DW chart due to some rounding errors being fixed.
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03/11/07, 4:48 AM
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#165
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Von Kaiser
Human Death Knight
Bonechewer
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*WARNING* completely theoretical *WARNING*
If I had to guess what the real problem is with windfury and why it has a shared cooldown, the extra attack mechanic would be the culprit. I don't believe the quad hit bug was random at all. Extra attack procs seem to work from last known information. Because procs are slightly delayed, there is a time period in between the hit and the proc for your other weapon to hit the target.
For example:
OH hits (Proc)
Delay (MH hits, procs)
Proc goes off (MH delay)
OH proc uses last known, deals MH damage.
MH proc goes off dealing MH damage if OH hasn't hit exactly between last WF and the next one.
It seems WF proc hits count as hits for the sake of tracking last known info too. Normally there is not enough time for any type of weapon attack to go off between a hit and a proc, except that DW uses completely independent weapons. I'm willing to bet the reason this hasn't been noticed by anyone before is:
A) a human couldn't react in the time between a swing and a proc even with 0 latency & knowing the proc would happen to take advantage of it and
B) any accidental instant strikes which would be placed between a hit by an weapon and an extra attack proc are probably simply pushed back to after the proc by the server specifically to prevent that issue.
Windfury is a unique instance of an odd interaction. There's no real way to tell for other classes if extra attacks are being calculated correctly because of the lag times and seeming randomness of the combat log due to server parsing of the attacks. However, quad windfury immediately tells you something is wrong because of the known 3s cooldown between procs making the chain proc impossible otherwise.
So under the current implementation of WF and with the downrank bug, you will quite often see streaks of 4x MH and 4x OH windfuries. Its not in fact a bug at all but an interaction between WF mechanics and the downrank bug that gives a separate cd.
The interesting thing is that once you hit a dual proc, both WF are on a virtually identical cooldown timer, resulting in a higher than average chance of another quad hit if your weapons were identical speeds (or given the lag time and WF counting, within .2s I'd guess). Obviously enough, stormstrike adds yet another way to set both WF cooldowns to near-identical timers.
I'd be willing to bet this is why they had to add a shared cooldown. The fix would basically be rewriting the extra attack mechanic, unlinking the MH/OH windfuries would lead to the same problem as downranking did.
Last edited by Azurai : 03/11/07 at 5:01 AM.
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