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Old 03/02/07, 6:04 PM   #16
Fellwraith
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle...
 
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Mulack
Orc Warrior
 
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Originally Posted by Lord BEEF View Post
Maybe anasthetic poison should have been a shaman weapon enchant instead of a rogue poison
The only way they can justify that is if they give warriors tranq shot to deal with enraged bearform druids.

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Old 03/02/07, 6:08 PM   #17
berg
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Rogue
 
Tichondrius
The trick is that enhancement shaman are not fighting for raid spots with rogues/warriors like everyone always assumes.

They are fighting for raid spots with resto shaman who can buff a melee group almost as well as an enhancement shaman can.

Enhancement worked because the Unleashed Rage added enough dps group wise that the UR dps+ the shaman dps yielded a net gain compared to a 5th dps class.

It was the perfect game mechanic because you would never want to stack enhancement shaman as there are completley diminished returns after the 1st one.

Now the gap between enhancement and rogues/fury will be significantly higher and both classes will continue to scale better than enhancement does.

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Old 03/02/07, 6:22 PM   #18
Igniter
King Hippo
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
<AHH>
Ner'zhul
Saddened by this change, the rough 15% dps drop. The change will also impact guilds thinking about taking an enh shaman for lager raids.

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Old 03/02/07, 6:45 PM   #19
Fellwraith
It'll take a lot more than rage and muscle...
 
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Mulack
Orc Warrior
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Igniter View Post
Saddened by this change, the rough 15% dps drop. The change will also impact guilds thinking about taking an enh shaman for lager raids.
If they buff every single member of their group's dps by ~10% or more, they can do significantly less individual dps than a rogue or warrior and still allow the raid to do more damage. 110*4 +85 > 100 x 5.

The reason my guild usually takes them is for unleashed rage and for the synergies they have with warriors and feral druids. More crit, more ap, more flurry uptime, more rage, what's not to like?

Resto shamans belong in the healer/shadowpriest group imo, it's a completely different function in a larger raid. With the changes to wrath of air, it seems that's a perfect spot for them.

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Old 03/02/07, 7:16 PM   #20
Maverikki
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Vashj (EU)
It's not just that having different ranks on weapons circumvents the 3 second rule, it also causes strange four hit streaks from either main hand or off hand. Also it seems that sometimes the offhand windfury hits do not get the -50% penalty for melee attacks from offhand. It needs to be fixed somehow, but I don't think the 3 second cd is the right way. Or if Blizzard doesn't want us to have dual windfury, they should just make it impossible to have windfury enchanted weapon in offhand.

But I think most of the cries from rogues come from rogues who don't bother to perfect their combat skill cycles. For an enhancement shaman the optimal cycle is to press stormstrike every 10 seconds and then a shock button every 6 seconds. And that is something even a handless donkey can do.

My wish simply is that Blizzard would state if pve enhancement shaman is supposed to be raid viable even when not buffing 4 warriors in the group or at least to see the changes in ptr or specified somewhere else. That way I could decide if I use the t4 tokens on healing or elemental or enhancement gear.

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Old 03/02/07, 7:44 PM   #21
 Kurisu
So damned Devious
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
I assume yes but ill ask anyways, has their been confirmation that the totem is affected also? I assume its windfury effect but a rogue in my guild is skeptical.

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Old 03/02/07, 7:54 PM   #22
mek
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Spades View Post
Were DW shamans dealing so much damage (and not managing to pull aggro) that this was necessary? I'm curious.
DW is extremely bursty, unreliable, and usually just plain bad in PvP, and completely threat-capped in PvE. They're absolutely comparable to old fury warriors. Without BoSalv, raid dps is simply out of the question, even with it caution is required (not sure to what degree the Unleashed Rage bug is affecting our threat, though). I carry invuln pots at all times because I can still occasionally pull aggro at the very end of a fight, or at the very beginning if somebody mis-blessed me.

I could never consistently beat rogues, or fury warriors with the benefit of my totems and UR, but I could beat everyone else in a single-target dps situation reliably.

That said, I'm fine with the nerf so long as we are buffed in other ways to improve our hybrid-ness. Right now the best idea I have is to replace Mental Quickness in deep Enhance with a talent that adds 10/20/30% of your ap to spell damage and healing, this would bring us up to 800 or so damage/healing in a raid situation and make our totems/shocks/heals a more significant part of our dps. Right now as an enhance shaman gears for dps it becomes less and less time-efficient to heal, eventually when we're in tier 6 or 7, our heals will be hitting for 1k on targets with 15k hp and we'll just remove them from our bars (if we haven't already, lolz). I also think the tier 5 2pc bonus is an awesome idea and probably should be a talented ability (2% on hit of proccing a buff that makes your next LHW cast instantly, therefore not breaking your autoattack). But again, those 1k LHWs are kind of pointless, hence why we need the benefit of an AP->spellpower conversion.

And Spirit Weapons needs to affect all of our damage done, not just melee damage.

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Old 03/02/07, 9:22 PM   #23
Miaxi
Don Flamenco
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
I assume yes but ill ask anyways, has their been confirmation that the totem is affected also? I assume its windfury effect but a rogue in my guild is skeptical.
This cooldown has been in game since they changed windfury to not proc off itself. Nothing will change for the totem.

While a global 3 second cooldown might seem excessive, something needs to be done to fix windfury proccing off itself. The DPS of a well-geared enhancement shaman is just too high and a 10% reduction might well be in order. Currently DW shamans are well capable of pulling far ahead of all dedicated DPS classes with only stormstrike and autoattack-windfury, no shocks, no fire totems and minimal mana investment. Combat rogues need to keep up a strict skill rotation in order to maximize their output, that shamans can easily be on par with just using stormstrike on every cooldown sounds pretty wrong in my ears.

I am positive, that once our DPS output is brought in line, the devs will look at lacking aspects of the class, as well. Currently, however, high DPS is our own hurdle just like paladins' bubble.

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Old 03/02/07, 9:59 PM   #24
 Kurisu
So damned Devious
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Ok that explains a lot, I never read too much into the enhancement cross ranking side the fact that it would proc itself, i wasn't aware that it was forcing it to ignore the 3 second rule though thats sort of common sense. : /

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Old 03/02/07, 10:05 PM   #25
panny
Bald Bull
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by mek View Post
DW is extremely bursty, unreliable, and usually just plain bad in PvP, and completely threat-capped in PvE. They're absolutely comparable to old fury warriors. Without BoSalv, raid dps is simply out of the question, even with it caution is required (not sure to what degree the Unleashed Rage bug is affecting our threat, though). I carry invuln pots at all times because I can still occasionally pull aggro at the very end of a fight, or at the very beginning if somebody mis-blessed me.

I could never consistently beat rogues, or fury warriors with the benefit of my totems and UR, but I could beat everyone else in a single-target dps situation reliably.

That said, I'm fine with the nerf so long as we are buffed in other ways to improve our hybrid-ness. Right now the best idea I have is to replace Mental Quickness in deep Enhance with a talent that adds 10/20/30% of your ap to spell damage and healing, this would bring us up to 800 or so damage/healing in a raid situation and make our totems/shocks/heals a more significant part of our dps. Right now as an enhance shaman gears for dps it becomes less and less time-efficient to heal, eventually when we're in tier 6 or 7, our heals will be hitting for 1k on targets with 15k hp and we'll just remove them from our bars (if we haven't already, lolz). I also think the tier 5 2pc bonus is an awesome idea and probably should be a talented ability (2% on hit of proccing a buff that makes your next LHW cast instantly, therefore not breaking your autoattack). But again, those 1k LHWs are kind of pointless, hence why we need the benefit of an AP->spellpower conversion.

And Spirit Weapons needs to affect all of our damage done, not just melee damage.
I agree with Spirit Weapons. It's far too restrictive. Make it all threat while in melee range. I'd love it to be 20% instead of 15% too, but I understand if Blizzard wants Shaman to be threat restricted in PvE. I do think you're exaggerating slightly with Shaman's threat issues, however.

+30% spellpower would be excessive though. Make it 30% +heal and maybe 10% +spellpower. Something that makes +heal and +dmg still cheaper on gear.

I'd love for them to give our Enhancement Tree some more choices and make it a bit more PvP friendly. Make it so you have to spec deeper into PvP, missing out on some of the nice PvE talents in Resto/Elemental. A +crit talent on WF and/or SS. A snare/stun resist. A chance for Lightning Shield to stun? A talent like Blinding Speed? At the moment, Enhancement specs are pretty clear cut.

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Old 03/02/07, 10:59 PM   #26
Khlysti
Ithyphallic
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Since this seems to be a general enhance and whats wrong thread, first some quotes of what I said in durnitol's thread.

Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
So, was slightly bored and went for a dps test, gear is as shown in my link on the left (expect with gems in it). Each test is 1000 seconds of auto attack only.

For windfury 5/4 - 628.4 dps
For Windfury 5/5 - 557.3 dps (equivalent to what an enforced cooldown will give us)
For Windfury 5/flametongue - 517.8 dps
For Windfury 5/rockbiter - 550.8 dps
For no weapon enchants at all - 326.5 dps

However since shaman dps is currently insane, and plain broken with enough buffs
e.g. You crit Shade of Aran 2100
You windfury crit Shade of Aran 3179
You windfury crit Shade of Aran 3211
You windfury crit Shade of Aran 3219
You windfury crit Shade of Aran 3154

Windfury 5/4 in its current mode is broken badly, yes this change sucks hard as it makes slow offhand a requirement, but something does need doing. 4 main hand procs in one is funny for dps epeening but wrecks my dps in heroics as I have to do nothing so for so long to avoid mad procs giving me aggro.

As far as gear goes, I'm fairly happy with what I have in my profile, still need desolation shoulders and legs to drop though.
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
I would say that
a) sustained damage is too high
and b) burst is too high.

What we need is sustained damage that with the same level of gear is at ~90% of a rogue (high enough that in a 5 man we are still viable, but low enough that in a raid we are more a melee buff that a chosen class). And since it is entirely chance based our burst damage is far too high.

When you have some control over it a high burst can make sense, when its comes up with total fluke, with no control at all the burst that is currently achievable is very silly.

Once again I do not like the forced 3 second cooldown, but I still prefer it to current ( I run heroics with WF 5/5 to avoid stupid WF aggro sprees that only serve to kill me), as it stands WF 5/4 is able to produce completely insane burst and needs a fix. If it nerfs the hell out of enhance in the short term so be it, because doing more damage than other melee classes, while buffing their damage is moronic.

(sorry to the OP who seems to want non of this in the tread, but the thread seems to want it)
As it stands my damage is stupid, I played a priest in our naxx raiding days, but I know well enough where threat caps, and I don't know any TBC encounter where I can't pull aggro late on if I choose to go all out.

If we get a dps that fits with current WF 5/5 thats fine with me, if blizzard actually itemise enhancement gear sensibly. Shamanistic rage basically says we do not need mp5 on gear, at all, ever. With my current gear my raid buffed mana pool is ~8k and I fill it from 0->full with 1 shamanistic rage, clearly its less than this if I spam abilities as SR is up (but since I struggle to use 8k in 1 min 30 anyway...) the point stands that in the vast majority of raid fights I need 0 MP5 on gear.

Lets just keep it simple, remove the stupid burst I have quoted above and give simple sensible sustainable damage. Thats what we need, if we want silly burst we cant throw on a 2 hander and hope for a double crit WF, not just dual wield and fluke a 4 crit that gives us an aggro death sentance on most things.

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Old 03/02/07, 11:18 PM   #27
panny
Bald Bull
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
As it stands my damage is stupid, I played a priest in our naxx raiding days, but I know well enough where threat caps, and I don't know any TBC encounter where I can't pull aggro late on if I choose to go all out.

Lets just keep it simple, remove the stupid burst I have quoted above and give simple sensible sustainable damage. Thats what we need, if we want silly burst we cant throw on a 2 hander and hope for a double crit WF, not just dual wield and fluke a 4 crit that gives us an aggro death sentance on most things.
How can you say that you have no aggro issues and mention that you can get aggro and die in the same post?

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Old 03/02/07, 11:37 PM   #28
Khlysti
Ithyphallic
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Erm, unless I missed something quite horribly I haven't claimed I have no aggro issues, I know what will and will not give me aggro, but I have no control over what I do with WF procs as a shaman, hence I have issues even where I should not.

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Old 03/02/07, 11:42 PM   #29
panny
Bald Bull
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Barthilas
Originally Posted by Khlysti View Post
Erm, unless I missed something quite horribly I haven't claimed I have no aggro issues, I know what will and will not give me aggro, but I have no control over what I do with WF procs as a shaman, hence I have issues even where I should not.
Right, I see what you meant now. Sorry, I misunderstood.

But given that you ARE threat capped... doesn't that mean a Shaman place in group PvE dps is okay? Even further since you can choose faster weapons to reduce your burst?

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Old 03/03/07, 12:52 AM   #30
mek
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by panny View Post
I agree with Spirit Weapons. It's far too restrictive. Make it all threat while in melee range. I'd love it to be 20% instead of 15% too, but I understand if Blizzard wants Shaman to be threat restricted in PvE. I do think you're exaggerating slightly with Shaman's threat issues, however.
Well yes, I'm just anticipating where our current threat issues will lead, given increasing gear power. I don't pull aggro or die often, no more than an irresponsible rogue, but of course once I pull aggro I have less options available to me to survive. Like fury warriors, our dps will (would..) quickly outpace tank threat generation, and aggro will become more and more of a problem in the future.

This DPS nerf hurts but I think it could end up being a good thing, IF the devs improve us in other departments, creating a more dynamic play experience, rather than SPAM COOLDOWNS RARRRRRR. That's a big if, though. And those improvements should be patched in alongside the nerf, or the angst will be extreme.

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