The Change to Windfury and You! (does not apply to warriors) - Page 9

Khlysti · 04/09/07, 12:42 PM

I've had 4 main hand procs with all 4 crit, fairly rare but its very good aggro generation when it does happen.

Malan · 04/13/07, 1:16 AM

Ok so the patch notes for the 2.1.0 PTR confirm the change to WF - no more stacking WF 5/4 and getting procs from both hands. So - what's the consensus now on the OH weapon enchant? Flametongue? WF5?

Nite_Moogle · 04/13/07, 1:38 AM

WF5 is still going to be your best bet if you have any sort of DPS at all.

I for one apologize profusely for any part I may have had in making that damnable cooldown public knowledge

Malan · 04/13/07, 1:47 AM

This change wouldn't matter so much if they also changed it to read "off hand windfury causes the main hand to proc"

panny · 04/13/07, 2:24 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

This change wouldn't matter so much if they also changed it to read "off hand windfury causes the main hand to proc"

Why, so you'd pair the slowest MH with the fastest OH? :P

I hope they do fix the cooldown issue so that weapon speed isn't so important, but I think that they want to reduce our sustained DPS, and this is a convienent way to do it.

Malan · 04/13/07, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by panny

Why, so you'd pair the slowest MH with the fastest OH? :P

Why would it matter? Neither can proc within the 3 sec cooldown window. There's pages upon pages in this thread that ended up basically sayingit "doesnt' matter what the weapon speed is" regarding the windfury procs. Besides the slowest main hand in xpack is 2.6 and there are many of those. I challenge you to find a way to exploit that.

Pane · 04/13/07, 2:45 AM

The net effect is a 8% - 10% dps nerf, as far as my testing showed. It will still take a pretty good rogue to outdamage me after the fix.

panny · 04/13/07, 3:19 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

Why would it matter? Neither can proc within the 3 sec cooldown window. There's pages upon pages in this thread that ended up basically sayingit "doesnt' matter what the weapon speed is" regarding the windfury procs. Besides the slowest main hand in xpack is 2.6 and there are many of those. I challenge you to find a way to exploit that.

You think getting additional 2.6 speed WF procs at 1.8 speed chances not affected by the 50% offhand penalty don't matter?

Aranan · 04/13/07, 4:16 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

it "doesnt' matter what the weapon speed is" regarding the windfury procs.

Was that the final conclusion? It seemed to jump back and forth between "slow is good", "it doesn't matter", and "qq windfury is nerfed". I've been following all the discussion about the change since it first started here and I still don't have a firm grasp on what weapon speeds are good/bad or if it even matters at all.

Malan · 04/13/07, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by panny

You think getting additional 2.6 speed WF procs at 1.8 speed chances not affected by the 50% offhand penalty don't matter?

What additional procs? You can get 1 proc per 3 seconds. That's it. With all the haste items I have plus flurry, I'm never missing a cooldown window. I'm not getting anything "additional".

panny · 04/13/07, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Malan

What additional procs? You can get 1 proc per 3 seconds. That's it. With all the haste items I have plus flurry, I'm never missing a cooldown window. I'm not getting anything "additional".

You're telling me that in every single 3 second window, you are proccing WF with a 2.6 weapon?

And you're telling me that all those WF procs are MH?

• Shalas · 04/13/07, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Malan

What additional procs? You can get 1 proc per 3 seconds. That's it. With all the haste items I have plus flurry, I'm never missing a cooldown window. I'm not getting anything "additional".

Even if you have both weapons land the instant WF cools down (very rare with varying amounts of haste), you still only have a 36% chance of getting a proc. With your weapons, Flurry, Bloodlust and the haste procs from your gear up, you have an average of about 5.86 seconds between each proc with linked cooldowns, and that's with a fast OH. Getting down to an average of 4 seconds per proc requires a .5 speed OH.

If you are consistantly getting a proc exactly 3 seconds after the previous one, they're either doing something strange like banking blocked procs or there's a pretty significant bug.

drats · 04/13/07, 5:39 PM

So has anyone made it onto the PTR to do WF testing yet?

Not that I don't trust blizzard, but I'd like to see if 5/5 numbers PTR are the same as they are on live right now.

mek · 04/13/07, 5:49 PM

A slow offhand seems to be a must, due to the OH eating MH proc problem. It looks like one of the epic craftables like Runic Hammer would be a best bet, I can't seem to find any T4 drops that qualify as slow offhands; almost everything over 2.0 speed is main hand only or a sword. Anything I'm missing?

Sapp · 04/13/07, 6:11 PM

What about re-examining using a non-windfury offhand?

mek · 04/13/07, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sapp

What about re-examining using a non-windfury offhand?

From the testing I've seen (results are in this thread somewhere, I believe) wf5/wf5 is still superior to any other enchant combinations by a very significant margin in 70 blues, and that difference only becomes more pronounced as you gear further.

panny · 04/14/07, 2:38 AM

Originally Posted by mek

A slow offhand seems to be a must, due to the OH eating MH proc problem. It looks like one of the epic craftables like Runic Hammer would be a best bet, I can't seem to find any T4 drops that qualify as slow offhands; almost everything over 2.0 speed is main hand only or a sword. Anything I'm missing?

The only things I've seen are the Arena one handers (no slow offhanders).

I imagine which weapon buff for offhand will depend on your weapon speed. I'm offhanding a Blackout Truncheon atm for the proc, and from the speed (1.5 speed), and I think WF might not be the way to go on it.

♦ Oggie · 04/14/07, 3:02 AM

Originally Posted by panny

I imagine which weapon buff for offhand will depend on your weapon speed. I'm offhanding a Blackout Truncheon atm for the proc, and from the speed (1.5 speed), and I think WF might not be the way to go on it.

WEll I think more dramaticly if you're using a 88ish dps MH and a 71 DPS OH it's probably not wise to use double WF as WFing on the OH is going to be extremely low dps.

Nite_Moogle · 04/14/07, 3:03 AM

Not really. Your odds of being denied a Windfury proc on your main hand during the time where your offhand caused a proc are actually pretty low. You only have a 1/5 chance of that happening anyway assuming the previous MH swing didn't proc WF as well, and with the offhand getting slightly better than a 1/5 chance (we'll say 2 in 5 for argument's sake, even though your MH is almost assuredly not a 3.0) you only end up with roughly a 1 in 12 chance that any offhand WF proc is overwriting a MH proc. You simply can't give up offhand WF procs for fear of them overwriting main hand WF procs, you'll end up losing DPS in the long term.

Barring a large DPS disparity between the two weapons or an extremely fast offhand vs an extremely slow main hand, I really doubt a long parse will have WF/WF getting trumped by anything else.

Aranan · 04/14/07, 4:32 AM

So slow mainhand + pretty much any offhand is the general rule of thumb?

Malan · 04/14/07, 1:53 PM

Blizz needs to update the frigging tooltip for WF now. It still says "each hit has a 20% chance" which we know to be untrue.

Originally Posted by panny

You're telling me that in every single 3 second window, you are proccing WF with a 2.6 weapon?

And you're telling me that all those WF procs are MH?

No, I said I'm not missing the cooldown window. I have double mongoose enchants, flurry, a haste trinket, and bloodlust. With all the haste effects going on, my MH speed (normally 2.6) is generally reduced to around a 1.6, if ALL the effects are up at once I've seen it as low as 1.1 speed. I am getting a MH hit as close to every 3 seconds after a windfury as possible, that's what I'm saying.

Malan · 04/17/07, 12:45 PM

After playing with the rogue/hunter/shaman T5 kits (had to hobble together gear and weapons from those 3) using a 91 DPS dagger MH and my arena cleave OH (the dagger they gave in the rogue box actually seems worse than the arena weapon to me), I think that Flame on the OH might be the way to go. Totally anecdotal evidence here, but SW Stats was showing double WF DPS to be around 540 average on Terokar mobs, and when I put FT on the OH, it shot up to 620 average.

Edit - further testing on blasted lands mob is showing a huge increase in DPS when I put FT on the OH instead of WF, both cases wtih GoA and SoE down.

Iol · 04/17/07, 12:51 PM

Has someone tried with Elemental gear doing double flametongues with fast weapons on high armor mobs? Might be a good setup for 5 mans to still being able to fill a backup healing role at the same time.

Pane · 04/18/07, 4:56 AM

Originally Posted by Aranan

So slow mainhand + pretty much any offhand is the general rule of thumb?

Excuse me for quoting, but I wanted something to hang this on and your post is as good as any. That said; I would encourage everyone to read this, since it is highly significant, and I lack the theorycraft to discredit the outcome of the following...

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...96052290&sid=1

OP's conclusion in a nutshell; offhand weaponspeed is SO significant with regards to the WF cooldown, that a 2.6s, 9.6 dps offhand outdamages a 1.6s, 60.3 dps offhand.

If this is indeed the case, expect many more changes to WF mechanics, because I highly doubt blizzard will let that stand.

mek · 04/18/07, 5:03 AM

That post sadly isn't news; I've gone ahead and crafted a Runic Hammer to replace my Blackout Truncheon specifically because of the fast offhand problem. The worst part is there are no epic drops whatsoever that are optimal for a shaman offhand... at least, that we've yet to see, maybe there's something in BT/Hyjal.