Melian

1. Hellfire Warders in Mag's Lair can actually perform CBs as well, despite being lvl 72. I put in a ticket and was informed (by a gm who seemed to know nothing) that it was working as intended. Shrug.

"This means “Boss” level mobs and lvl 73’s are almost a death sentence to a druid."
*Gasp*
Taking CBs is part of bear-tanking. If CBs didn't exist (or if we had a reliable way to avoid them), we would be the most desirable tanks in heavy physical damage encounters.

2. This is only partially true. While unbuffed avoidance usually favors the warrior (from what I've seen), druids benefit much more from Kings, MotW, Grace of Air, and Agi Elixirs. For example: Unbuffed, I have about 43.5% total avoidance, and our main warrior tank has about 50.6%. Raid-buffed, I have about 57%, and he has about 56%.
Given that druids simply scale better in this respect, I expect that with better gear, the gap will widen.
(I understand that this is anecdotal evidence. Take it for what it's worth: An example.)

 

seminarca

I remember reading that crushing blow % chance depends on the level difference, and it is calculated vs the victim's base defense (defense skill without gear, so 350 unless you've just hit 70).

At a defense/weapon skill parity of 15 (attacker is 3 levels higher than victim), there is a 15% chance for the attacker to land a crushing blow, 2% per defense/weapon skill parity - 15%

(2% * 15) - 15% = 15%

At a defense/weapon skill parity of 10 (attacker is 2 levels higher than victim), it's 5%

(2% * 10) - 15% = 5%

I assume there is a lower limit of 0% as I'm pretty sure level 71 mobs won't crush.

edit: changed a - to =

 

Melian

Taken from Crushing blow - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

"When the attacking mob has 15 or more points of weapon skill above the player's base defense there is a chance of being struck by a crushing blow. The chance is 2% per point of difference minus 15%." (Emphasis mine).

This is what I've understood of CBs since I first knew what they were.
There are only two possibilities: Wowwiki is...wrong (/crosses self), or the Warders are bugged.

Also, it simply doesn't make sense that Blizz would change CB mechanics like this shortly after saying that they were looking into *removing* CBs.

It should be easy to test though: Log on and take 100 hits from a lvl 72. No crushes? Warders are bugged. I should have time to do it tomorrow night.

 

seminarca

edit: Crushing Blows

Here's something on Mag adds.

More testing required, will get back to this later.

edit2: Just going through the WWS of a recent Mag kill, here's a snippet from the first Hellfire Warder pull:

Hellfire Warders are level 72, unlike Mag adds (Hellfire Channeler) which are marked as skull level.

If I can get some time before our raid today, I'll test vs level 72 Apexis Flayers up on Blade's Edge Mountains.

 

Benhoof

Everybody with a little knowledge in probability and statistics will bang his head on his keyboard upon reading this ;-)

 

Xequecal

Chance of crushing blow is 15%. The probability for a MOB that does crush to not crush for 100 consecutive hits is about 8.748 * 10^-8. I'd say it's a pretty good test.

 

anathor

I have definitely taken crushing blows from Rokmar in heroic SP and he's a lvl 72 elite. I actually took 2 in a row at the end of the fight and died. The rest of the group still managed to kill him and then I remember discussing it with the healer.

Either any mob with weapon skill > player's base defense can crush (and the the formula gives 5% chance for lvl 71 mob, 10% for lvl 72 and 15% for lvl 73), or some bosses have a higher weapon skill than their lvl indicates (but I thought Blizz had ruled against that).

All in all I have a feeling that the wowwiki text should read "When the attacking mob has 5 or more points of weapon skill above the player's base defense there is a chance of being struck by a crushing blow."

 

anathor

By a melee class, period. If you are thinking of crushing blows with the reservation about "non-boss lvl" then a) we still take less damage and b) pushing crushing blows out of the hit table is avoidance, not mitigation.

Also more hp = more chance to survive spike damage (works great in combination with high mitigation).

As indicated by other posters, not true.

We have 15% chance to avoid AoE damage (including AoE spell damage) via talents.

Also our AoE taunt costs 15 rage, vs 5 rage for a warrior.

However spamming taunt might be useful in 5-mans (?) but in raids not so much. And as you indicate above our snap aggro is not bad either and can definitely help to regain aggro quickly.

Why is this a con? It's always good to have one extra rezzer, no matter what, especially a battle rez which can literally mean the difference between a kill and a wipe. There are bosses with "down" phases when the MT can rez (e.g. curator in evocation phases), and in case of OT it's particularly useful (e.g. OT-ing the imp in the Illhoof fight, when it despawns there's ample time for a rez).

 

Benhoof

If the above said is true and the Warders are lvl 72 and the crushing chance for lvl 72 is 5%, then there is a 95%^100 = 0.6% chance that you will not receive a crushing blow in 100 swings.

The chance is slim, but it's still possible. And no matter how slim the chance is, you can never PROOVE that warders are bugged.

 

amoondre

Thanks, I spent a lot of times on sites like "Wowwiki"and then WoW Druid boards looking up info for this post and I love the fact that I get the most feed back from the EJ boards. I Thought that I had most of this Covered but, this info is amazing. Thanks, and keep it coming if you can.

 

Melian

True, it would be impossible to *prove* that 72s cannot crush, even in a sample of millions. Allow me to rectify my statement:

"Log on and take 100 hits from a lvl 72. No crushes? It is highly probable that the Warders are bugged."

I would consider a 0.6% chance of a false negative close enough for theorycrafting, but we can argue semantics if you wish.

 

Boevis

I've taken crushes from other Level +2's. I never considered it worth screenshotting.

Entirely possible that multiple types of mobs have higher than average Weapon Skills.

 

Nathariel

Like the glancings against lvl61/62 in Silithus before BC came out.

 

The Grog

Glances and Crushes can happen vs. any mob higher level than you. They're just really rare until you get to a +3.

A druid with T4 gear and the right kara/mag/heroic jewelry can hit 34k armor. At that point, a crush from a boss will often hit for something remarkably close to a high normal melee hit on a warrior. With no worries about something breaking shield block to crush the warrior.

The danger from crushes is on a fast hitting mob, where you might get unlucky and eat several back to back. Prince comes to mind. However, a warrior faces the same problem. Crushes on slow melee mobs are fairly unimportant. I've never died to a crush string from Nightbane, for example, because his hits are so slow the healers can adjust in between.

In equal gear, a druid's dodge will be about the same as a warrior's parry + dodge. The warrior's defense miss rate will be a little higher.

The big differences are in block, def stance, and buttons. Block matters some on bosses, but a lot on trash. Like hyjal trash, where a warrior or paladin with a good block value can sit there and tank 6 ghouls and take loldamage. Def stance is valuable against single target magic damage. Not that common, but not that rare either. Generally a couple bosses per tier make it worthwhile. Hydross, Alar (to a point), Kael, Gorefiend, Anatherion. In my mind, buttons make the big difference. Pots, last stand, shield wall, heathstones. A druid can go double trinket and manage a weak shield wall, but it's not the same.

Itemization is better for warriors, but tolerable for feral tanks.

 

Bain

Hey, sorry to ask something that's probably general knowledge/been repeated, but i couldn't find it using the search function.

I'm trying to help a mate with Druid cat dps, and im curious as to how you guys cycle ur skills/spells.

Do you open with pounce; then go, Mangle, Rake, Shred, Shred -> Rip
Then from Rip go; Shredx4, Rake -> Rip ?

From what I've noticed, I don't think people seem to use Rake at all? I'd also like to ask - since we predominantly do kara - is it still worth using Rip as a finisher? since Undead don't bleed.

Thanks for any assistance.

 

Malazaar

You will find most of your answers either here: Feral Druid DPS

- Rake is crap, don't even put it in your bar
- Use Rip whereever possible (not on immune mobs obviously)

Easy cycle is (Pounce)-Mangle-Shred(until 5cp)-Rip-Repeat
Better is (Pounce)-Mangle-Shred(until 5cp)-wait for 81+ energy-Rip-Mangle-Shred(until 5cp)-wait for 81+ energy-Repeat.

 

Bain

didn't want to waste a post with a thanks... too late.

cheers.

 

Meddler

As Malazaar says above, only addition I'd make (obvious, but feel it's worth mentioning) is to pay attention on trash as to the likely lifespan of the mob. A lot of the time, especially in Kara, you'll find you won't actually get enough ticks out of Rip before the mob dies to make it a better choice than FB. If you're using FB make sure you're as low on energy as possible before using it, sub 50 as a rough rule of thumb - the extra energy conversion's so atrocious it's better to use another shred and waste a combo point than convert it to extra FB damage .

 

angral

Except when pvping. It will bring a rogue out of vanish when it ticks. Extra bonus, Cloak of Shadows cannot remove it. So, don't remove it from your bar. Just have it on a button waaaay down the end, like =, or 9. I think I reserve = for Tiger's Fury... :]

 

Imbar

Can anyone name a use for Tiger's Fury? I'm not trying to bash it, I'm just generally curious.
My druid is only my alt, but I've not found a use for it as of yet (lv66 currently).

 

Lavode

tigers fury is worth using if you are running to the next target with a full energy bar. Thats it.

 

• Quantum

It's an accetable temporal damage boost when wearing crappy gear, especially when used in conjunction with ravage as an opener (Tiger's Fury doesn't break stealth), but its lousy scaling makes it completely useless in raid damage cycles.

Using the energy for another shred is definitely superior dps (~40-60 DPS for 6 seconds against 1-2k damage from a shred (crit)).

 

oldmandennis

Use it with (oh Jesus I haven't used it in so long I forget what druid ambush is called) <ambush> to remove 1/2 of a drinking mages health.

 

Dalamar

I think there would be a point where haste rating increases your attack speed fast enough to where you would get better returns on using 30 energy every 6s rather than saving for shreds, but unfortunately that would require something unfathomable like 3k haste rating or something stupid like that, combined with the fact that you do not get combo points from using your energy on Tiger's Fury, it's pretty god awful.

To be honest, Tiger's Fury could be buffed up to 200 damage and it still wouldn't outdo what you get from Shred combo point generation and Rip damage, even considering multiplicative damage you would get on shreds during that time.