I think the health thing is true. My health total in caster is 10.5k, which is 14k completely unbuffed in bear. Fully raid buffed without flask I'm on over 20k (i think) with fort, motw, blood pact, commanding shout, food and rumsey rum - total of +100+18+92+20+15 stamina, which is 294 stamina in bear, plus the ~1300 or so from commanding shout (which helps a lot if you can get it). I much prefer having a load of health and only 25% dodge unbuffed than having 40% dodge and 2k less health. It might mean less damage total, but having been a healer, I prefer healing someone who doesn't spike a lot, or at least can take the spikes with a good safety margin.
In reply to the previous poster: There's a talent in feral that reduces critical chance against us by 3% - means you only need about 415 defence to get crit immunity. It also doesn't give block or parry, which I assume is what he meant by "it doesn't do as much". He should still be aiming for 415 though, crit's can easily mean you die VERY quickly on particular bosses (malchezzar especially).
Help me out here if you could. I noticed a druid chatting in guild chat the other day about tanking and I asked him what his defense was. He said something like 360. I said you should probably get that up to 490. He said 2 thing that puzzled which I hoped you could help me with.
A - defense doesn't do as much for druids as it does for warriors so it's not as important.
B - I don't get crit that much anyway.
Do druids use a different sort of stat makeup to be ready for tanking then warriors? Is it going to signifigantly harder for a druid to reach 490 defense? Doesn't defense rating change between NE form and bear form and cat form?
A) We don't have block or parry, so in terms of stat costs, defense is kinda expensive for us. It's like getting the supersize combo at Macdonalds and not eating the fries. All defense really gives is crit reduction.
B) He probably has the crit reduction talent -3%, and might be getting resiliance gear.
415 (not 490) defense is the magic number, fairly easy to attain with crafted stuff.
The correct way to look at it is in terms of rating. You need 156 Defense Rating to get 415 Defense skill, which equals crit immunity vs. a level 73 boss mob with 3/3 Survival of the Fittest. However, the crit reducing power of Resilience means that each point of Resilience Rating translates to the equivalent of 1.5 Defense Rating. So combine them and reach that cap and then focus on Agi and Stam.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
If the armor got bumped up to where I could ditch the Verdant, maybe I'd feel better about it, but as it stands now most of the pieces are hybrid Cat, not optimal for tanking and even not optimal from a pure cat DPS standpoint compared to items like Windslayer's.
I only take those off for Arena, because I like the versatility of Moonglade there. Maybe I'm dumb, but 60+% raid dodge is pretty cool, and going from ~15% dodge at the price of 6% mitigation has been worth it all the way. It's also nice because swapping "stance" mid-fight isn't as painful a proposition, and critting for free CP/rage is always fun for the whole family.
Originally Posted by dukes
He should still be aiming for 415 though, crit's can easily mean you die VERY quickly on particular bosses (malchezzar especially).
I forgot I wasn't crit immune when we pulled PM one week. Dancing over his corpse, I stopped caring. First time, for the entire encounter, I got a whopping one sunder on me total. Second week, it actually got down to three sunders, and that was scary, but certainly manageable. No flask, no buffs besides food, and one elixir. Being crit when you have all your mitigation (aka, not sundered to oblivion) is certainly less troublesome then being HIT when you have none. Additionally, and at the risk of inviting a roll-table discussion, he has to hit you before he can crit.
Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.
For tanks, any CRIT on specific mobs in a Heroic/Karazhan can cause you to die. (with the preceding or next shot as healer doesn't have enough time to react.)
This is clearly evident by Bog Lords in Heroic Underbog who have a special instant hit that does ~5K on a 22k armor Bear. (i.e. crit is 10k) (Insert Auchenai Vindicators and the Sporebats of Underbog as also hard hitting specials)
On the topic of crits, can someone explain this one?
415 Defense and 3/3 SotF and I got crit. It's not a big crit, mind you, I have seen crushings bigger than that but I was still surprised. What's up with that?
The multipliers on mangle and shred are what make up for our 1.0 attack speed really.
I figure I show some of the math behind how they compare its not a full comparison not taking into account energy/crit differences which have a pretty big influence as well (figure if you are going to do that then you also have to look at the additional energy of combat potency etc)
Rogue Talents
Aggression - +6% to Sinister Strike
Surprise Attacks - +10% to Sinister Strike & Backstab
Dagger Specialization - +5% Crit with Daggers
Sword Spec - 5% chance extra attack
Imp Backstab - +30% to Crit for Backstab
Opportunity - +20% Damage to Backstab
Druid Talents & Abilities
Savage Fury - +20% to Mangle
Mangle - +30% to Shred
So in both cases the amount of AP that gets applied is actually less than the Rogue version with larger constant modifiers. Things that change how it works is druids get to Shred at 42 energy and if you don't have a mangle bitch you are going to have to mangle in addition to pure shreds. A Combat Dagger rogue is also going to have Combat Potency which helps out a ton for them. If you want to do a full comparison though on who gets the most on AP you have to see the derivative of Damage to AP over a full cycle for both druids and rogues.
1) Some combat mods register crushing blows as crits
He's using SCL which sure doesn't and can't imagine anyone sticking with an addon that considered crushings as crits since you would see yourself getting crit all the time then.
Sorry to intrude on all the tanking discussion but for those druids that are healing specced, what type of role do you feel druids are best at for healing? What I mean is, in general do you think druids are best at spot healing the raid? HoTing the tank? A few hots on tank and a few on raid? Or maybe skip ToL and alot of the HoT talents and go higher in balance and use only HT? I know all this is situational as well - a ToL druid may need to be out of it spamming HT for high spike fights, you want max hots on maiden, etc. but in general where do you feel druid healing really shines?
Having played priest and now shaman I feel like I know how to assign them to the right jobs. Pallies are pretty simple to figure out anyways. Druids I'm a bit iffy on - I know all the spells and talents, how much they heal for and such but I'm not quite sure what to make a druid heal so that he can use his spells best. Our druids end up using regrowth alot and while I know it's not as bad as it used to be it's still not their optimal spell just looking at the stats... and I wonder how to put them in the position to use their more efficient spells.
He's using SCL which sure doesn't and can't imagine anyone sticking with an addon that considered crushings as crits since you would see yourself getting crit all the time then.
Yeah, that's true. Another theory I had apart from "there is no 100% crit immunity" would have been the guess that the character panel might have rounded up Defense I got from Rating. Wouldn't surprise me with the 2.4 Defense Rating : 1 Defense ratio.
I was looking at a 34/0/28 build for HT spam, or something along those lines. Would someone be kind enough to link me a good distribution for this spec? I keep ending up with some extra points.
On my druid alt, months ago I took Blackhand's Breath instead of Mark of Tyranny. Any advice on how to convince a GM to swap the quest reward?
I just straight up told him I had no idea that the armor on the trinket was multiplied and there isn't a trinket to match it in the game.
Originally Posted by missiletoad
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.
Yeah, that's true. Another theory I had apart from "there is no 100% crit immunity" would have been the guess that the character panel might have rounded up Defense I got from Rating. Wouldn't surprise me with the 2.4 Defense Rating : 1 Defense ratio.
Quite possible. The way my gear has worked out puts me on 417 or 418 defense most of the time. After every raid I check the stats and I've yet to be crit since we started running Kara.
I was looking at a 34/0/28 build for HT spam, or something along those lines. Would someone be kind enough to link me a good distribution for this spec? I keep ending up with some extra points.
No oomkin, no 15% more spirit, no swiftmend, no imp tranq nor imp hots or tol but all necessary talents for your ht. And low rank subtlety, to (you can drop ooc if you really want to). Only one thing really hurts, you lack nature's focus! I've no idea how to get 5 points for it without losing dreamstate (maybe the main reason for droping so many points into balance). Think about http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MtMrzicsZZxEc0xqMMo if you want to.
All balance damage talents are only filler, so won't matter what you pick.
Ofc you could pick Oomkin for more solo usefullness, then you may need to drop 10% of imp ht or 2% effective healing.
Additional notes, to help you, if you want to pick Oomkin:
How's imp ht working?
CT/3.5 = x, adding +0/10/20.
For HT r13 it look's like 3.5/3.5 = 1.00 , 100 + 20 = 120% of your +heal
For HT r4 it's 3.0/3.5 = 0.857 , 0.857 + 20 = 105.7% of your +heal (but think of downrank penality, to!)
How's gift of nature working?
[Baseheal + (CT/3.5 + imp HT Bonus)*+Heal*Downrankpenality]*1.x% of Gift of Nature
DR-Penality = 1 - (((Level at which next higher rank of Spell is Learned) + 5) / (Player's Level)) = Penalty [with a maximum result of 100%]
So, what's better? 2% over all or 10% for ht?
Using 1000 heal and HT 7,9,11,13
Healing Touch (Rank 7)
405 Mana 40 yd range
3.5 sec cast
(1028+1.1*1000*0,614)*1.1=1873
(1028+1.2*1000*0,614)*1.08=1905
Yeah, that's true. Another theory I had apart from "there is no 100% crit immunity" would have been the guess that the character panel might have rounded up Defense I got from Rating. Wouldn't surprise me with the 2.4 Defense Rating : 1 Defense ratio.
That is precisely what is happening.
I have 159 Defense Rating. That translates to +66.25 Defense Skill, however my Character sheet displays it as 417, or +67 Defense Skill. It appears to round all fractions up, which explains the screenshot.
If you have 156 Defense Rating and get crit I would be surprised.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Yeah, that's true. Another theory I had apart from "there is no 100% crit immunity" would have been the guess that the character panel might have rounded up Defense I got from Rating. Wouldn't surprise me with the 2.4 Defense Rating : 1 Defense ratio.
Yeah, it would be more convincingly confusing if it read 416 defense or greater. Its at best ambiguous at this time.
You need to avoid 2.x% crit since you have about -3% from SotF.
For every 25 defense skill you will get 1% dodge chance, (1% parry chance, 1% block chance) 1% increased chance to be missed and 1% decreased chance to be critically hit by physical attacks.
25*2.4= 60 defense rating for 1%, or 120 defense rating to become immun to crits versus a level 70 mob.
adding another 15 (5 per level) defense skill to avoid crits of level 73 mobs, you will get a number of 50+15=65 defense skill to reach, or 415 defense skill in total. This is 65*2.4=156 defense rating. There is at any time a chance from ~ 0.1% to get a crit, but one crit from 1000 isn't that much, is it?
You could also reach this goal by collecting resilience rating instead, 39.4 rating is needed @ 70 for -1% crit. Wearing about 102.44 resilience rating should have the same effect as wearing 156 defense rating. Wearing 3 pieces of the "Gladiator's Sanctuary" Set should make that deal and add a good load of armor and stamina with a lot of gemslots.
I forgot I wasn't crit immune when we pulled PM one week. Dancing over his corpse, I stopped caring. First time, for the entire encounter, I got a whopping one sunder on me total. Second week, it actually got down to three sunders, and that was scary, but certainly manageable. No flask, no buffs besides food, and one elixir. Being crit when you have all your mitigation (aka, not sundered to oblivion) is certainly less troublesome then being HIT when you have none. Additionally, and at the risk of inviting a roll-table discussion, he has to hit you before he can crit.
I prefer having lots of mitigation via armour/defence and having a ton of health, and being used for fights where that's an advantage (gruul offtank/hydross offtank for example, although hydross is more resist based I forgot to switch gear on one pull and still survived fine because of a big health pool) and leave anything with special moves which can be avoided to warriors.
There is at any time a chance from ~ 0.1% to get a crit, but one crit from 1000 isn't that much, is it?
It's enough to have people screaming at you when you get one-shot at 5%, and you really don't want to be using the excuse "but it's a one in a thousand chance" in front of 24 angry people because "shit happens", and more often than not will do if you give it the chance.
As for trinkets - are many people still using SHotM and MoT tank-wise? I'm currently using the Argussian Compass and the Adamantite Figurine (crit immune and plenty past, but I still haven't seen moroes pocket watch drop which I'd much prefer) which are alright, the stam certainly helps on a lot of fights. I never picked up enchanting (partly laziness) and I got the eye of the beast back when I had no clue about mechanics of the game and vendored it shortly after as far as i can remember.
The more I think about it, you're probably right. I've gone well over 20k pre patch, and I really got into a mindset about pure mitigation and let my hp slide a lot, like Boevis has been doing. It was just painfully obvious on prince that my hp wasnt cutting it.
Every time I've taken a +Avoidance item over a +Armor item it also represented a Sta increase Ghoul Skin - Wardens, Verdant Gloves - Wastewalker, Ash Tempered - Nomads. I still wear Manimals as neither the Chess Chest nor Ghazan have dropped their belts for me. I'll never be fond of the "OMG STA" on the heavy clefthoof, nor of anything that has no DPS stats on them (out of the 6 Armor rings in BC they couldn't make 1 of them like Ring of Vek'lor?!) And I'd kill for a decent cloak with Armor, Sta, Hit, Defense, and Agi on it.
I use MoT and Adamantine Figurine (for the Def) but will be 'upgrading' to the SHotM when I get around to buying the PvP bracers. I loathe resilience as a tanking stat, but I'll take it when it means I can get more dodge and armor.
03/19/07, 3:39 PM
I hope they they finally get arond to filling the itemization hole...
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