I'd say +350 healing is worthless in the arenas. Simply put, your hps will not match thier dps, and by trying to heal through it, you have just CC'd yourself.

In a world of potential +2k Healing, anything under 666 isn't worth mentioning.

To maintain this level of CC you need to keep yourself focused on the target almost exclusively though. You are doing nothing else, (and if the healer is a paladin half of that cycle is invalid or broken into segments.) Most other forms of CC are more fire-and-forget. A warlock can pop his fears then dot up the other team then go back to his fears. Our CC's are too short to allow us to do anything but maintain them.

Well I dare say you could probably get that too if you switched a couple of gear pieces (swap out DPS Rings for Rings of +50 Healing) or enchants (+81 Healing over +35 Agi etc) around. I didn't even include Nurturing Instinct either, so go re-spec the two points that are now wasted in Savage Fury in that and you've got another +200 Healing.

The point remains, *some* healing is infinitely better than none whatsoever. You can give out perfectly competent DPS (and it is competent) while still being able to heal when it is needed and that is a very big strength for any DPS class.

Yes you do, but you're doing that at your choice. You're forcing the other team into a 4v4 match which they're not prepared for and you are. You can also throw Healing Touches/Roots while Cyclone ticks down. This combo works fine against Paladins too by the way, at no point are they ever not stunned and able to act.

I wasn't trying to imply that our CC was superior to a Warlock, simply that it is viable in it's own right. It's certainly far superior to Shaman or even Rogue CC for example but again, that's irrelevant. There seems to be a lot of:

'Well our healing isn't as good as a Priest in Arena'
'We're not as resilient as Paladins'
'Our CC is worse than Warlocks'
'OUR DPS isn't as high as DPS Warriors'

regarding a Druid's role in Arena, which I don't understand at all. Of course those things are true, but does anyone think that they shouldn't be true? There are three main 'roles' (for want of a better word) in the Arena; DPS, CC, & Healing. We can do all three, and I think we're the only class who is capable of doing so (Elemental Shaman are close maybe). For me that's a reason to celebrate.

I really can't agree with you on this one, swills. I think there comes a point where you have to decide if you are healing or killing. Even with +666 healing, with feral spec (probably no NS, certainly no swiftmend), you are having to shift out and cast... regrowth? Which, if your lucky, might crit for around 2000? Definately not healing touch, no way thats going to land. Rejuv+lifebloom? I guess, but if that saves them, they probably didn't need your help. I'm guessing that in all these situations, helping take out one of thier DPSers would have been more in reach, and helpfull. But it would be harder if you are sacrificing your gear for +healing.

While the Gladiator Dragonhide set is pretty nice, I do wish they would take that +healing and turn it into spirit or more intellect. +300 healing on a 3k+ heal isn't significant, and I use my mana for a lot more than that. Crowd control, abolish, decursing, and shifting in and out of snares burn a heck of a lot more mana than healing does.

In 5v5 Arena right now our best option is as Cyclone-bot and abusing Lifebloom in the same way priests used to use PoM. I spec for 7/11/43 right now, and it works very well. I'll admit I wear 2 Dreamwalker and 2 Moonglade for the set bonus's (saving for gladiator weapon) My MO is usually to root a melee out of LOS from his healer and then Cyclone them as they move while keeping HoTs on their DPSs target for swiftmending.

This of course leaves us very vulnerable to assist-trains since caster leaves no defense to more than 1 CC, we can trinket-bear and hope they switch attacks to someone else. While I certainly don't feel useless in my 2k rating team, I would definately feel more useful as a warlock or shaman with our standard makeup (hunter, warrior, paladin, priest, me)

Feral can't compare to the CC or burst DPS that rogues or warriors have. The only real useful dispelling we have is removing CoT on a paladin/priest or crippling poison off a hunter/warlock. We also have no offensive dispell, and our "silence" is 4/15 uptime potential, and has an effective 2 second cast time if you're in caster to start with.

I think what it really comes down to is your group composition and the tactics your team uses.

With feral spec in a 5v5 with 2 other healers the chances are that you wont be required to do barely any healing at all, in which case speccing for NI and stacking any +heal gear would nerf the role you'd most likely be forced into, ie pure dps. With only 1 other healer (I guess it would have to be a paladin) it might be viable to go with mixed gear, ie 2k AP 30% crit, maybe 500 healing and a decent mana pool. I havent tried this kind of setup so I cant speculate as to whether it would be effective or not, but in theory this role would play to a feral druids strengths - because of the way the item budget works you can get more stats out of mixed role items and thus more benefit, providing you use all the abilities available to you. With this group setup for example, there are 3 other dedicated dpsers which would give you the freedom to do some burst in cat then switch out and cc\heal for a bit or whatever without feeling as though you have to compete with the rest of the team in terms of dps or healing, providing you do some of both.

With feral spec in a 3v3 I think having some +heal is beneficial in most situations. The fact is that you lose relatively few dps stats to achieve a reasonable mana pool and some + heal, and with only one other healer it's safe bet to assume that some healing will be required from you. To say that +300 heal makes no difference isnt really a reasonable assumption in my opinion - providing a fair chunk of your mana pool is spent on heals it's usually going to be more effective than the same ipoints spent on AP and crit. Similarly LB and rejuv shoulnt be underestimated when you consider the total amount healed for 2 gcd's. It's things like this that can make the difference in close games.

The issue I have with +healing is this...

If you're feral spec'd in a 3v3, and if you've got a primary healer in the group, your role is to assist on burst damage and help with crowd control. When your primary healer is getting attacked, the best thing you can almost always do is crowd control the attackers first and heal second. Crowd control cast times are faster than your heals, and aren't subject to debuffs such as mortal strike or wound poison.

The primary functions I find myself using my mana for include shifting out of CC and/or powershifting, abolish/decursing, crowd control, and healing. That 300 healing costs the same as 130 spirit. 130 spirit is an extra 1500 mana on an innervate, plus the regen you get during the times you're able to stay shifted for rested regeneration.

When our healer dies in 3v3, it doesn't usually happen because my heals weren't hitting hard enough. It's usually because they simply didn't go off in time (sorry for the italics, but that's the main point I wanted to make). And I've had plenty of times where I simply run out of mana during the fight between all the shifting and casting that goes on. I would much rather have enough mana in my set that I can cast any spell I want as needed, rather than have to think "if I shift out and cast this next heal, I'm going to be stuck in caster form until I regenerate mana".

Those are the reasons I'd rather see spirit (or more intellect) on the Gladiator's Dragonhide set.

Just found out why my "buffed" health value was so far off what I'm used to it being - no kings! It's 19.7k with food/rum/motw/kings/fort. With blood pact, mastery and commanding shout, it'll be ~23k, ~24.5k with fortification flask. Mad healthpools ftw.

I'd also prefer more int/spirit on the gladiator set, the amazing 9 healing on the gladiator gloves is just silly - I'd much rather have 1-2 int/spirit. I also really don't like the 0.1 second less cast time on cyclone, when other classes get things like 3 second silence on deadly throw, 50% less interruption on fear, and things like that - cyclone is a multi-purpose spell (i.e. any spec can/will use it), but it seems like not such a great bonus really even though I can't actually think of something that wouldn't be worthless to someone (like uninterruption on cyclone - already talents for it, etc).

Another 130 int is an extra 1950 mana (really I'm not a fan of spirit for PvP so its fine to me no spirit)

Innervate is of questionable use in anything except 2v2 since a lot of groups are going to have either a mage, shaman, or priest and if they are good (or at least know what they are doing) sure not going to let you have innervate.

For the gloves chance to resist spell interrupts on Cyclone would be good since we can only prevent damage interruption via talents.

Planning on dropping the chest and legs for the t4 when they come around - and I use the supple leather boots for armour/dodge over the clefthoof on any fight where I don't need runspeed (although I'll be switching full time after t4 swap). I've also just switched to the heroic badge neck from the maiden one - ends up as a lot more avoidance. If the morores trinket would ever drop I'd switch out the argussian compass in an instant (or timelapse dependant on defence/resilliance). Once I switch to t4 I also have the gladiator gloves with 15 agi on them ready to swap - need it for the resillience so i still have crit immunity. It's a bit of a mana sponge, but generally I have one healer on me on fights were I'm on offtank, and I can innervate them at some point (karathress after my add is down, morogrim in between add spawns, mag after my add is dead, hydross in between spawns, although i use different gear obviously, etc). Getting t4 should really help with my role in raids as a DPSer after the add goes down. After the gear swaps, I gain something like 70 agi as well as ~1500 armour, which with GoA brings me up to ~40% dodge buffed (buffed, not potted), and drop by about ~30 stam. Definitely worth the swap.

Silence or "interrupt" (pummel/etc) resist would be really nice - helps all spec types/playstyles. I'd still prefer something guarenteed rather than a % chance, but every little helps (especially as a successful counterspell on nature locks us down nearly as badly as paladins with holy). Something like a miniature version of the SSC druid trinket would also be nice tbh!

Thats what I said? I was talking about spell interrupters like Counterspell, Pummel, and Kick not damage pushback.

The use of silence resist is not that needed IMO. But the chain-fear due to shapeshifts is devastating.

Id just like to add a little of my experiences from 5v5 arena, and druids in general.

I have been playing as a druid since beta and have performed every role in pretty much every environment. Guild is typically in the top 3 on my server. Played resto throughout most/all of mc/bwl and such (like a good druid ) Played with feral when the new talents came out. Switched back and forth to fit what encounters we were on. Always tried to push the limits on what I could do as a feral druid and tried to earn my spot in raids (even if I wasnt given it because of what they thought of ferals). I'm not a stubborn druid who just plays one because I can and want to. If I am not pulling my weight I know it and will change accordingly. For example early AQ I performed pretty well as a feral and helped with some OT/MT and dps. Late AQ going resto helped tremendously.

After years of raiding I pretty much stopped right before TBC came out. Leveled 60-70 with mostly the same people tanking/dpsing my little heart out. Healing in raids just doesnt do it for me and thus I am currently a non-raider in my guild filling in when they need some OT/DPS or something. I dont pull my weight as a healer(feral speced) and dont have any desire to raid resto anymore.

I am on a 2k rating team consisting of priest/pally/hunter/mage/druid
We have played together (pvp/pve) for years now. We know each other very well and can anticipate what the other will be doing. This is our advantage.

What the whole back story is about is pretty much I know this game very well. I not only know my class in and out I know all the other classes (save shammy) as much as the people playing them do. So the whole grass is greener thing doesn't really hold much weight. I feel if I somehow transformed into a warrior and put in as much effort researching and gearing as I did my druid our 5v5 team would easily be 2100-2200. For every time I think to myself wow being a druid just won us a match. (like cycloning a healer and burning a dps, or getting a FC/bash off, a clutch heal) For every time I think that there are 3 more times I think to myself... if I was a warrior that MS would of negated that heal enough to kill that person, or that fear would of really helped right then, if I could only execute that guy would be dead... I do feel I earn my spot in our group. But I also feel I could be much much more effective if given another class.

My pve is limited to clearing kara and killing gruul in which I pulled my weight and beyond. The itemization is very scary moving on and the direction everything is heading is a little depressing.

To be honest I dont really know what they should do in 5v5. Try and tone down pally/war combos or try and help out the little guys. (Druids!) -50% healing is much to be desired in a pvp encounter and it would be nice to either have or it be changed or some other ability that could define us in very competitive 5v5 matches. Maybe even a cat -> bear -> cat switching ability. And/or reducing the shifting cost into forms by .... a lot would be a step in the correct direction.

Overall I am happy to be a druid, I like punishment and I like to overcome short comings. The constant underdog story is fun but wouldnt/wasnt it nice to not be bottom dog for a while

I still love my druid, but I switched, for much of the same reasons you mention here. It is not that I feel the druid is necessarily overpowered, but that the complexity and timing invovled in being an exceptional druid is so high, and the margin of error so low. I made the switch, and I honestly feel my effectiveness has gone up tremendously in all of the roles i previously played as a druid (MT, Arena Rat). After playing as a warrior for a while you realize just how much blizzard loves warriors in terms of itemization (suddenly every boss drops at least one thing you'd want, if not more, with tons of toys)

Not to mention the complete bugginess of Cyclone - Especially on warriors where it actually de-stances the warrior, messes up their action bars, and removes all their buffs and causes them to lose a great deal of their rage. Druids are desired for this spell because of its buggy nature. This is our definition now, we're essentially a healing rogue, as the rogue's true strength lies in disruption, and we can do the same thing with a proper spec (NG, FC, NS). The highest ranked pvp druids shine in this role. Feral...offers little at the high end. Moonkin...offers even less.

Its fine that not every spec is worthwhile in competition, but the druid "off" arena specs are nearly spectacularly useless.

Its dilemma that will probably never be resolved in balance. My guilds #1 pvp team (13th on BG last i checked) always bitches about cyclone and how overpowered druids are in that regard. Their insistence on Cyclone being "the best CC in the game" strikes me as odd, but I can see the justification for a nerf on it, but how on earth do you nerf it and not make it useless?

I have to say that when comparing a warrior (or rather an MS warrior) to a druid in pvp and finding the druid lacking, that's more of an issue of the warrior being overpowered then anything else. MS warriors have been probably the most devastating group pvp spec in this game pretty much forever and looking at the top arena teams only confirms that. After all, are there actually any top arena teams without an MS warrior? That's not to say that druids do not have their issues but really any class fails when compared to an MS warrior.

At 1950ish rating in 5v5, I definitely feel we need some boosts in the arena, but not drastic changes.

I don't really see how feral can be that great in 5v5, but with respecs being so relatively cheap I don't mind being resto for arena.

Resto just needs more survivability so that you actually stay alive long enough to get into bear. Change natural perfection to 15%, reduce improved regrowth to a 3 point talent instead of 5, make barkskin a 1 minute cooldown, compress a couple of other talents to make it easier to pick up the bulk of the resto tree, and we'd be much more in line.

Regarding innervate in arenas, I've really had no difficulties using this. Honestly I haven't encountered nearly as much offensive dispelling as I would have expected. Shamans and priests are often just too busy doing other things to really be able to focus on stripping your buffs.

I wasn't sure if this deserved its own thread, so I figured I'd put it here. Sorry for derailing.

I currently feel druid DPS in a PvE enviroment is excessive. I'm a feral druid myself, and in all fairness I think cat form DPS in raids should go down. I'm fairly well geared. (Domo on Argent Dawn EU, for profile) and seem to have little trouble outDPSing other melee and sometimes casters, depending on the encounter of course. During a potted try without flasks at Kazzak, with a Shaman in my party for totems, I reached well over 4000 AP and 43.61% crit. These are ridiculous numbers, even when considering the fact we don't get weapon damage.

How do you feel about cat DPS? Think it will be nerfed, and perhaps more importantly, do you think it deserves it?

I have noticed the same thing about innervate. Only time I have seen it dispelled is when a priest is purposely trying to rid our pld of mana with mana burn and the likes, typically he is ready for the innervate. Then its usually cyclone -> innervate

I will say I hold my own in feral but like I have said ... could do much better with another class or as resto if we didnt have 2 healers. I have 2k+ish AP(getting glad weapon next week) 30ish % crit and such and at times I can burst down someone decently.

Typically I either start off cyclone healer -> assist train dps or assist train dps (hope we kill if we dont kill and I dont think 4/5 cp will kill I save those, pop out cyclone healer, then we go back at it) We have been working on some nice split dps strats depending on what we are facing that have worked very well with our makeup. (which I havnt seen or heard many teams doing)

barkskin -> tranquility is very nice in arena and typically when I use it, it helps.

I think the only reason we are at 2k and rising is some of the unique strats we come up with and the ability to play a team, win/lose and come back and do better each time. But that really doesnt have anything to do with how well druids preform in 5v5. I am hopeful.

I think it sounds like your guild needs to have players to compare to before saying catform DPS needs nerfing. Rogues in your group with same buffs should outdps you easily enough. Catform DPS is nice but its not top 5 DPS unless your raid doesn't run with shadow priests or your players aren't trying or confused about maximizing DPS.

Heh, if this is your comments about cat form DPS I like to see your comments on Shadow Priests who with everything setup can top the damage meters against the best plus give way more than a catform druid (who do decent damage and give decent group buffs).

Our dps was nerfed in the last patch, albeit by only 5% crit damage which i guess i around 2% total damage.

I dont think our cat dps should or will be reduced. I'm also fairly well geared, (armory link arena mace with agi enchant not showing for some reason) and although i rarely get to dps as the guild is a little short of tanks atm, when I do I find that comparably geared rogues and arms\fury warrs out dps me without too much of a problem in most encounters. Hunters leave me waaay behind, and everyone else for that matter. I use the usual dps cycle of mangle -> shred to 5 cp -> powershift -> 100en -> rip and still I'm usually a good 10% behind rogues.

I'd wager that consumables and buffs benefit all melee classes more or less equally and considering the disparity in base weapon damage I don't really see the value in comparing stats to gain any insight into relative dps output. It's different in every guild ofc, in mine the hunters pretty much pwn all but this is because it so happens that they're the most skilled players. If you're consistently topping the dps meters then I'd venture a guess that it's because you either outgear your guildies or (more likely) just outplay them. On a level playing field any pure dps class will outdps a feral.