The only non healing gear I wear for arenas is a blue +57 stamina shoulder that serves as a placeholder until I get my arena shoulders.

As for spec, that one would likely work quite well, it's pretty similar to what I have and it's been pretty good to me. My 2v2 is with a feral druid so we get beat by a lot of team combos, dual druid just isn't that great.

Not sure if I should put this in the Druid tears thread or the Magtheridon thread.

Is there a significant difference these days between Druid Growl and Warrior Taunt? We are attempting Mag, 4 tanks. We have one Warrior pick up two adds at the start. They kill mine first and then I go taunt one of the extra off that Warrior and bring it back to kill third in line.

My Growl is resisted I would estimate 50% of the time. Of ten attempts last night I had Growl resisted five times. I had two taunts resisted in a row one attempt (at which point the 2nd add was dead and I didn't even have aggro on mine to bring over). Similar results tonight. I switched for a Warrior and he's had no problems (albeit a smaller sample size, only 3 attempts). These are raid-level mobs (skull, not level 73).

I seem to remember from the 4 horseman days that Taunt/Growl were dependent on spell-hit gear (or 4-piece dreadnaught). Has that changed or am I just having a very bad string of luck? Is it different between Druids and Warriors?

Not sure exactly if this is the right thread for this question but I am currently reevaluating my talent spec. It is currently http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MZxhGsfroezioVxszb and I am thinking of changing it to http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MZxGGsfroezboVxszx. It is primarily a tanking build with a few important cat and resto talents so I have some flexibility to switch roles.

The main difference and the talent that I am investigating is Predatory Instincts. With my 30% crit rate and parsing some combat log data, it seems that Predatory Instincts makes a much much smaller difference than every other talent when it comes to improving cat dps in a per-point basis. I got so disillusioned by the talent that I'm thinking of dropping it altogether to get Brutal Impact and then move 3 points over to Resto to get more Tranquil Spirit.

The only thing stopping me is the secondary effect of Predatory Instinct which is an increased chance to avoid AoE. Unfortunately, I don't have a very good idea of the benefit of this secondary effect and how much it contributes to survivability while tanking/dpsing. Does anyone have any hard data/testing/anecdotal evidence regarding the effectivity of Predatory Instinct in terms of reducing AoE?

What is considered AoE? Does it include both physical and magical forms of AoE, i.e. cleave/whirlwind and blast wave/hellfire? Are there AoE effects that are unavoidable? On average, how much of the damage you take while tanking is AoE? Obviously, most if not all of the damage you take while cat form dpsing is AoE and so does the talent make a significant difference in survivability while cat form dpsing?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I'd say Savage Fury is worthless in terms of how it affects cat dps, since mangle is the only part of your cycle it is affecting most likely, rake and claw aren't used enough for the bonus to be worth it. The talent has zero effect on tanking, it affects no bear abilities.

Primal Tenacity is underrated for PVE, in my opinion.

And I concur that Savage Fury is worthless. I specced out of that as soon as Bear Mangle was removed from it.

Using both simulations and actual combat log parsing, I use mangle often enough (to keep the debuff up) that 2 points in Savage Fury contributes more cat form dps than 2 points in Predatory Instinct. Granted, that's at a 30% crit rate. Predatory Instinct gets better with more crit but not to the extent that makes it better to use points there rather than Savage Fury.

If you don't think Savage Fury is worthless, then so is Predatory Instinct unless the AoE avoidance makes it worthwhile. I just have no idea how the AoE avoidance works and on which moves it applies, which is why I posed the question. :P

I would probably agree for raiding furor isn't that awesome, but for solo and pvp it is fantastic. As a 0/30/31 druid without Feral Fairy Fire, I rely on it when tanking 5mans. After a moonfire pull it helps me have enough rage to quickly get control since I can't enrage and pull after the debuff wares off.

PS: Imp mark doesn't really improve mark that much for five talent points either.

Being able to shift bear and immediately Feral Charge someone is invaluable in PVP.

I find furor incredibly nice for tanking too, because if I know I am going to pull, I shift, enrage, wait for it to build and then engage. Almost 40 rage (with the free rage when you enrage talent) to burn gets you a very nice start on threat generation. The mob might block/parry one of my specials, but he's not going to be able to block/parry all of them. You keep ahead of your dps' threat by always being able to use a special

Also, for those times when everything is going to hell, you are healing, the tank isn't quite doing aoe threat well enough, when a mob runs over that is stunable getting to bash or feral charging the tank's mob to get the mob back to him sooner is nice.

To add to the poster without improved faerie fire, in situations where I tank mulitple mobs, I usually starfire/moonfire some of the mobs I won't be getting the first hits in on. By doing this, I build up enough aggro to counter initial heals. By getting that initial rage quicker I can swipe faster. Swiping can get me up to 15 more rage from the talent that give you 5 rage for a crit. So by already having that rage, I easily can supply my own rage to tank mulitple mobs.

In addition, how many druids do you have? We typically see 2-3 druids in our runs depending on what healers/tanks are around. If someone else has improved mark, you're wasting your points. (Yes, this is for raiding)

Also, there are many many boss fights where when the fights go long, healer mana gets low. The ability to swap out, toss a few heals, maybe a tranquility, and already have energy to burn when you swap back in helps keep your dps up.

Frankly I'm surprised imp mark is still the only raiding tier one talent and still five points, it's one of the things that has irked me about resto for a long time.

Giving up Furor for iMOTW is one of those things we all go through to prove to our guild that we're so serious about raiding that we'll never solo or PvP again.

Aside from the obvious cat DPS benefits, The first pull of Arcatraz is part of the reason I have furor. Shifting out of Immobilize effects is really a big deal, being able to instantly get back in melee with your opponent is also a big deal, doing both saves lives.

There's also the "Oh crap, I'm below 5 rage when offtanking Gruul, Enrage is down, and he just did slam" Furor allows me to charge back and not kill people with shatter, and possible another person with Hurtful Strike if they make it into melee before me.

Kaz - I always thought it would be funny to have 3/3 Imp MotW and 2/2 Imp Imp MotW (obviously with a different name) - +10/20 all resistances.

I have furor and I don't have the improve enrage talent. I like furor better because it works as long as you have the mana to shift, which when making a pull in a raid is always. If we are chain pulling, or I was rage-starved at the end of a long pull and my enrage is down, its a nice bit of rage I'm guarenteed to start a fight with. It also lets me pop my enrage during a frenzied regen for more health, or when I'm having to pick up a loose mob or something that wasn't mine from cat form (I tend to dps in my bear gear on big multi-pulls in case something happens, and it's saved wipes before.) without worrying that I will be starting the next pull without it.

I would not pvp feral without it, bear+instant charge is far too important to a feral's pvp game.

The problem is that they are running out of non-cheesy "XYZ of the Wild" names to give such things.

Mark of the Wild
Staff of the Wild
Idol of the Wild
Hide of the Wild
Gift of the Wild
Heart of the Wild (used for an herb AND a talent)

That would be a cool idea though. Wild Growth and Wild Tenacity, perhaps?

Just found this screenshot (think I took it last week) - follows on to the discussion a few pages back where I was trying to work out what AP I could get up to (after Cryect posting a screenshot with his AP on whilst trying to work out sustained DPS).


Zero pots. <3 trinkets.

Still haven't actually had a chance to test sustained DPS properly though. Tanking in way too many fights atm and not really got the time to go out and just have a mob tanked for ages and check. Recap seems to reckon around 1100 there though, which isn't surprising with Rip ticking for that much.

Nevermind. Found what I was looking for

I see your 4.9, and raise you!



I really, really, really like potting up as much as I can. I get a nice little thrill when those huge numbers, that used to only be on my Healing Touch crits, go speeding off my screen. This was after a Karathress kill that I averaged 1064 DPS. (Thank God the bat didn't spawn >_<)

Amen to that. Bat = problems, normally. Such a piss take that with the bat my incoming DPS is about 2.2x what it is with the elemental, they should make it sleepable at least.

I'm gonna quote Sebudai here, with regards to the bat:

"It's fucking retarded that a random element of this fight eliminates one of our top 5 DPS and up to 2 healers for the first quarter of the fight."

Also, it should be noted, that a rogue and a hunter both beat me in DPS on that particular night

Ah, do you just have an extra offtank on it then? Normally I just pick it up with the hunter and the DPS watch their threat for a little bit. Healing is normally really painful if I get the bat though ;/ Enrage on both and a string of non avoidance without inspiration up hurts one hell of a lot.

If the bat spawns, I throw on the tanking stick, and hold onto him while we kill the first two adds. I generally stick around another tank to abuse Chain Heal/Prayer of Mending heals. After the hunter is dead, Blade Flurry, Whirlwind, etc., usually have the bat pretty low, 20% or so, and we just finish it off, then I go scratch stuff.

This week was particularly irritating, as he did the knockback ability twice in a 2 second time-frame. I went splat.

Stupid question but how much mana does shapeshifting cost in 2.1 without Natural Shapeshifter?