Druid discussion thread - 3 roles, 5 stages of grief - Page 26

Lord BEEF · 04/11/07, 3:03 PM

The only non healing gear I wear for arenas is a blue +57 stamina shoulder that serves as a placeholder until I get my arena shoulders.

As for spec, that one would likely work quite well, it's pretty similar to what I have and it's been pretty good to me. My 2v2 is with a feral druid so we get beat by a lot of team combos, dual druid just isn't that great.

Oaken · 04/13/07, 12:13 AM

Not sure if I should put this in the Druid tears thread or the Magtheridon thread.

Is there a significant difference these days between Druid Growl and Warrior Taunt? We are attempting Mag, 4 tanks. We have one Warrior pick up two adds at the start. They kill mine first and then I go taunt one of the extra off that Warrior and bring it back to kill third in line.

My Growl is resisted I would estimate 50% of the time. Of ten attempts last night I had Growl resisted five times. I had two taunts resisted in a row one attempt (at which point the 2nd add was dead and I didn't even have aggro on mine to bring over). Similar results tonight. I switched for a Warrior and he's had no problems (albeit a smaller sample size, only 3 attempts). These are raid-level mobs (skull, not level 73).

I seem to remember from the 4 horseman days that Taunt/Growl were dependent on spell-hit gear (or 4-piece dreadnaught). Has that changed or am I just having a very bad string of luck? Is it different between Druids and Warriors?

Likas · 04/18/07, 5:18 PM

Not sure exactly if this is the right thread for this question but I am currently reevaluating my talent spec. It is currently http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MZxhGsfroezioVxszb and I am thinking of changing it to http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MZxGGsfroezboVxszx. It is primarily a tanking build with a few important cat and resto talents so I have some flexibility to switch roles.

The main difference and the talent that I am investigating is Predatory Instincts. With my 30% crit rate and parsing some combat log data, it seems that Predatory Instincts makes a much much smaller difference than every other talent when it comes to improving cat dps in a per-point basis. I got so disillusioned by the talent that I'm thinking of dropping it altogether to get Brutal Impact and then move 3 points over to Resto to get more Tranquil Spirit.

The only thing stopping me is the secondary effect of Predatory Instinct which is an increased chance to avoid AoE. Unfortunately, I don't have a very good idea of the benefit of this secondary effect and how much it contributes to survivability while tanking/dpsing. Does anyone have any hard data/testing/anecdotal evidence regarding the effectivity of Predatory Instinct in terms of reducing AoE?

What is considered AoE? Does it include both physical and magical forms of AoE, i.e. cleave/whirlwind and blast wave/hellfire? Are there AoE effects that are unavoidable? On average, how much of the damage you take while tanking is AoE? Obviously, most if not all of the damage you take while cat form dpsing is AoE and so does the talent make a significant difference in survivability while cat form dpsing?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Maax · 04/18/07, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by Likas

Not sure exactly if this is the right thread for this question but I am currently reevaluating my talent spec. It is currently http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MZxhGsfroezioVxszb and I am thinking of changing it to http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MZxGGsfroezboVxszx. It is primarily a tanking build with a few important cat and resto talents so I have some flexibility to switch roles.

The main difference and the talent that I am investigating is Predatory Instincts. With my 30% crit rate and parsing some combat log data, it seems that Predatory Instincts makes a much much smaller difference than every other talent when it comes to improving cat dps in a per-point basis. I got so disillusioned by the talent that I'm thinking of dropping it altogether to get Brutal Impact and then move 3 points over to Resto to get more Tranquil Spirit.

The only thing stopping me is the secondary effect of Predatory Instinct which is an increased chance to avoid AoE. Unfortunately, I don't have a very good idea of the benefit of this secondary effect and how much it contributes to survivability while tanking/dpsing. Does anyone have any hard data/testing/anecdotal evidence regarding the effectivity of Predatory Instinct in terms of reducing AoE?

What is considered AoE? Does it include both physical and magical forms of AoE, i.e. cleave/whirlwind and blast wave/hellfire? Are there AoE effects that are unavoidable? On average, how much of the damage you take while tanking is AoE? Obviously, most if not all of the damage you take while cat form dpsing is AoE and so does the talent make a significant difference in survivability while cat form dpsing?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I'd say Savage Fury is worthless in terms of how it affects cat dps, since mangle is the only part of your cycle it is affecting most likely, rake and claw aren't used enough for the bonus to be worth it. The talent has zero effect on tanking, it affects no bear abilities.

Quasar · 04/18/07, 5:57 PM

Primal Tenacity is underrated for PVE, in my opinion.

And I concur that Savage Fury is worthless. I specced out of that as soon as Bear Mangle was removed from it.

Likas · 04/20/07, 2:07 PM

Using both simulations and actual combat log parsing, I use mangle often enough (to keep the debuff up) that 2 points in Savage Fury contributes more cat form dps than 2 points in Predatory Instinct. Granted, that's at a 30% crit rate. Predatory Instinct gets better with more crit but not to the extent that makes it better to use points there rather than Savage Fury.

If you don't think Savage Fury is worthless, then so is Predatory Instinct unless the AoE avoidance makes it worthwhile. I just have no idea how the AoE avoidance works and on which moves it applies, which is why I posed the question. :P

Myonax · 04/20/07, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Likas

Not sure exactly if this is the right thread for this question but I am currently reevaluating my talent spec. It is currently http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MZxhGsfroezioVxszb and I am thinking of changing it to http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=MZxGGsfroezboVxszx. It is primarily a tanking build with a few important cat and resto talents so I have some flexibility to switch roles.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Why do Feral druids take furor over improved mark of the wild? It's something I have never been able to justify. The only DPS benefit it gives is if your power shifting in Cat, which is a spectacular DPS upgrade. In 10 mans and Arena you are rarely if ever going to have a second druid around with improved Mark. Personally I think the Stat/armor/resistance increase is going to offer more value then the 1-5 seconds it takes to regen the energy or rage. If your DPSing you are almost always going to start out in cat so the energy is only useful in power shifting. If you are tanking in bear it has some benefit, but mitigation and DPS of improved mark has to quickly overcome 10 extra rage

I think the only reason Druids ever get it is to bear bomb people from flight form.

Irshish · 04/20/07, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Myonax

Why do Feral druids take furor over improved mark of the wild? It's something I have never been able to justify. The only DPS benefit it gives is if your power shifting in Cat, which is a spectacular DPS upgrade. In 10 mans and Arena you are rarely if ever going to have a second druid around with improved Mark. Personally I think the Stat/armor/resistance increase is going to offer more value then the 1-5 seconds it takes to regen the energy or rage. If your DPSing you are almost always going to start out in cat so the energy is only useful in power shifting. If you are tanking in bear it has some benefit, but mitigation and DPS of improved mark has to quickly overcome 10 extra rage

I think the only reason Druids ever get it is to bear bomb people from flight form.

I would probably agree for raiding furor isn't that awesome, but for solo and pvp it is fantastic. As a 0/30/31 druid without Feral Fairy Fire, I rely on it when tanking 5mans. After a moonfire pull it helps me have enough rage to quickly get control since I can't enrage and pull after the debuff wares off.

PS: Imp mark doesn't really improve mark that much for five talent points either.

Quasar · 04/20/07, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Myonax

In 10 mans and Arena you are rarely if ever going to have a second druid around with improved Mark.

Being able to shift bear and immediately Feral Charge someone is invaluable in PVP.

Zeln · 04/20/07, 4:25 PM

I find furor incredibly nice for tanking too, because if I know I am going to pull, I shift, enrage, wait for it to build and then engage. Almost 40 rage (with the free rage when you enrage talent) to burn gets you a very nice start on threat generation. The mob might block/parry one of my specials, but he's not going to be able to block/parry all of them. You keep ahead of your dps' threat by always being able to use a special

Also, for those times when everything is going to hell, you are healing, the tank isn't quite doing aoe threat well enough, when a mob runs over that is stunable getting to bash or feral charging the tank's mob to get the mob back to him sooner is nice.

To add to the poster without improved faerie fire, in situations where I tank mulitple mobs, I usually starfire/moonfire some of the mobs I won't be getting the first hits in on. By doing this, I build up enough aggro to counter initial heals. By getting that initial rage quicker I can swipe faster. Swiping can get me up to 15 more rage from the talent that give you 5 rage for a crit. So by already having that rage, I easily can supply my own rage to tank mulitple mobs.

In addition, how many druids do you have? We typically see 2-3 druids in our runs depending on what healers/tanks are around. If someone else has improved mark, you're wasting your points. (Yes, this is for raiding)

Also, there are many many boss fights where when the fights go long, healer mana gets low. The ability to swap out, toss a few heals, maybe a tranquility, and already have energy to burn when you swap back in helps keep your dps up.

Fleebenworth · 04/20/07, 4:31 PM

Frankly I'm surprised imp mark is still the only raiding tier one talent and still five points, it's one of the things that has irked me about resto for a long time.

Monsanto · 04/20/07, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Fleebenworth

Frankly I'm surprised imp mark is still the only raiding tier one talent and still five points, it's one of the things that has irked me about resto for a long time.

Giving up Furor for iMOTW is one of those things we all go through to prove to our guild that we're so serious about raiding that we'll never solo or PvP again.

Kazanir · 04/20/07, 5:24 PM

The resto tree suffers from bloat. It's 68 points total, where feral is 56 points and the chickensuit tree is 58. The balance (har har) is a little off. The bottom of the resto tree should look like this:

3/3 Imp. Mark, 13/26/40% buff
5/5 Furor as is
3/3 Nature's Focus 24/47/70% healing pushback resist

5/5 Naturalist as is
3/3 Natural Shapeshifter as is

3/3 Intensity as is
3/3 Subtlety 7/13/20% -threat and 10/20/30% dispel resist
1/1 Omen of Clarity as is

Taking the 2 points out of Imp. Mark, Nature's Focus, and Subtlety respectively (and moving Focus to tier 1) would go a long way towards thinning out of the fat top of the resto tree and helping druid healers be a little more durable.

Boevis · 04/20/07, 5:24 PM

Aside from the obvious cat DPS benefits, The first pull of Arcatraz is part of the reason I have furor. Shifting out of Immobilize effects is really a big deal, being able to instantly get back in melee with your opponent is also a big deal, doing both saves lives.

There's also the "Oh crap, I'm below 5 rage when offtanking Gruul, Enrage is down, and he just did slam" Furor allows me to charge back and not kill people with shatter, and possible another person with Hurtful Strike if they make it into melee before me.

Kaz - I always thought it would be funny to have 3/3 Imp MotW and 2/2 Imp Imp MotW (obviously with a different name) - +10/20 all resistances.

Mistaya · 04/21/07, 2:35 AM

I have furor and I don't have the improve enrage talent. I like furor better because it works as long as you have the mana to shift, which when making a pull in a raid is always. If we are chain pulling, or I was rage-starved at the end of a long pull and my enrage is down, its a nice bit of rage I'm guarenteed to start a fight with. It also lets me pop my enrage during a frenzied regen for more health, or when I'm having to pick up a loose mob or something that wasn't mine from cat form (I tend to dps in my bear gear on big multi-pulls in case something happens, and it's saved wipes before.) without worrying that I will be starting the next pull without it.

I would not pvp feral without it, bear+instant charge is far too important to a feral's pvp game.