If you're in a DPS situation in an instance, ravage isn't worth it at all.

350% + 514 for ravage.
225% + 405 for shred +30% buff from mangle => 292.5% + 526.5.

With a char screen damage of ~350, you end up with:
Ravage: 350*3.5 + 514 = 1739 (~30 damage/energy @ 60 energy per ravage)
Shred: 350*2.92 + 526.5 = 1548.5 (~37 damage/energy @ 42 energy per shred)

Considering that if you have 20+ points in feral you'll almost certainly have shredding attacks, ravage <<< shred because of energy cost.

Most of the time in PvE I just don't even bother stealthing unless it's an easy-kill mob that the tank isn't even going to try tanking and just lets us gank while he gets some threat on other mobs, in which case I use pounce.

Bear tank?

Re: Dukes post: I avoid stealthing unless I need to see how close i get to aggroing an add while getting behind the trash mob. IMO applying FF while moving in to engage the mob > trying to fit it in after a mangle.

You don't. Mangle-> Shred is a much more efficient use of energy, considering you get more combo points, mangle debuff on the mob (for rip/shred) and you build threat a bit slower rather than a burst of threat if you get a ravage crit so the tank actually has a chance of holding it.

assuming you're the only feral druid in the raid (that there is no bear tank or another cat) Sadris' question becomes relevant.

You shouldn't count on Mangle + Pounce as a most common situation.
But i do agree, if i am gonna open with a Ravage, I prob have to hold out from attacking as soon as possible. Though crit Mangle + crit Shred isnt so pretty for the tank either.

If mangle crits you can wait for the 2 energy ticks until you're back on full energy and stagger the damage a bit, rather than just having one big crit that you can't control. Sometimes I end up wasting an entire energy tick just to make sure that I don't rip - heroic trash can be pretty nasty sometimes.

Forgive us mere mortals for thinking that since our tps is alraedy 50% greater than warriors that extra threat is a complete joke.

S cost reduction on the ability is a much more desirable option for tanking because it means that when I'm rage starved (i.e. my threat is low already) I am able to use my most powerful snap aggro tool. Instead of waiting another 2.5 seconds for my regular attack to hit or hope to high heaven that this dodge string ends before the healers overtake me on the threat meter.

I do think 5 rage was a bit much... though the idea of being able to shift and immediately hit mangle does hold a certain appeal.

I've always been of the impression that our tier sets are more designed with raiding in mind, as opposed to 5-man content.

This brings me to my point, that in raiding, when are we rage starved? Thusfar, I've tanked every trash mob in SSC/TK, and I'm never hurting for rage. Maybe in farmable content, like some of the Karazhan trash, or any of the Heroics, but certainly not in the instances that we obtain the high-end raiding gear.

However, improving threat generation, that provides a myriad of of options with regards to raiding. Only have 2 paladins that night? Let the 2/5 T6 druid tank, and forego the Salv. Mob has a deaggro, that's % based? Let the 2/5 druid tank, and bring an extra DPS instead of 4 tanks. More TPS is always good. I don't see how you can ever have enough, while maintaining acceptable tanking stats.

This is a welcome change and a huge buff, particularly on a 2pc set bonus.

I'm curious as to your tanking approach now, and am going to guess that you're more dodge oriented? While there's nothing wrong with that, per se, it would explain your comments about being rage starved.

The thing is though, mangle isn't the "main" attack for cat form. By reducing the cost by 5 energy, you gain a very small amount, as you would normally only use it every 12-14 seconds anyway. I assume they took this into account when they designed the bonus as it's a very small buff but not really one that scales all that well because of the %age use of mangle compared to everything else.

Just wondering, how many people here don't have savage fury? I've just respecced to grab Primal Tenacity and dropped Savage Fury, and I'm definitely noticing the difference on mangles, but maybe that will just make me be less lazy on spamming mangle rather than trying to keep track of exactly how long it's got left on the mob as it's now even more inefficient than shred.

In a raid environment a point in post-nerf Savage Fury is now strictly worse than a point in, for instance, Predatory Instincts, provided (fractional portion of total damage contributed by Mangle) * 0.1 < (crit chance) * 0.03, which holds for most 25-man-raiding cats. It's also not a good talent for PVP and consequently you don't see m/any highly ranked Ferals taking it.

I'd drop Savage Fury in a heartbeat if I didn't need to farm primals every 4 days for cloth cooldowns. But while I still need to solo things, Savage Fury stays, as Mangle contributes a lot for solo play and that portion of the game really doesn't need to become any more torturous than it already is.

this is the exact reason i still have it too - farming. I have reduced my raiding and spend a large amount of the limited time i have for playing farming reps and mats, and questing... for solo play (killing elementals is complete torture) SF makes it a little bit more bearable - though I'd be the last to complain regarding cat farming ability.

@Savage Fury
It is still an OK talent for pvp too. Sometimes it is very hard to get shreds off.

@Ravage
I use it only if I know my target will not survive long enough to get a second attack off.,Otherwise mangle+shred² is 100% superior or the pounce combo.
It is simply a weak ability. The same holds out for rouges. Ambush without the improved ambush talent is simply not worth using at all and you still have to think about using it because of the silencing effect of garotte.

@Survival of the Fittest
Is this talent worth taking in damage context. 3% to all attributes!?