Druid discussion thread - 3 roles, 5 stages of grief - Page 41

Mistaya · 05/25/07, 11:55 AM

I got the math through my warrior friend's head but he's right in that his block value is making up a lot of the difference.

Anyways, I kind of like hitting the armor cap so soon. It means that I'll be dropping one armor ring for a dodge/stam ring (like morogrim's) once I can make up the armor on other items. Eventually I'll be able to drop both armor rings (I have never had an armor trinket, only went feral in BC and I refused to lvl enchanting.) for better avoidance/stamina rings, or swap in a dodge belt or bracer or boots.

I really hope they never cap avoidance. Capping stats hurts the game I think, because it limits what your choices are as a player. If they capped avoidance there would literally be NO upgrade path for bears after they hit a certain dodge other than stamina. Right now we aren't going to see huge upgrades on -armor- from t4 to t6 but we are seeing large stat value increases and that makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

Boevis · 05/25/07, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Kink

All druids now need is some form of controllable burst damage, then maybe we can argue a valid spot on a 5v5 team as a feral=).

Make forms (including flying) work in arenas.

5x Rawrbomb

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32257
I'm curious if anyone got a chance to test this idol on PTR and if the AP lasted after removing the idol (ie. can you switch to everbloom and still get the AP bonus for your shreds) If the buff stays, this is going to easily replace Feral Shadows, if the buff fades ... I might use it for tanking ... maybe. (wtb a real tanking idol, sick of seeing http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32780 for warriors and +dmg for bears)

Tasonir · 05/29/07, 12:20 PM

I recently saw a chat log with the developers posted at: http://wow.stratics.com/content/feat.../logs/0001.php

In particular, two things of interest to druids, one for tanking, and one for the class as a whole:

Brannoc: *Mazrael* With the advent of multiple tanking classes in The Burning Crusade, Paladins and Druids are now competing for the role of main tank in 25-man raiding content, extending from Karazhan up through the Black Temple. Has WoW development reviewed the game mechanics of Crushing Blows? In 2.1, the Glancing Blow mechanic has been changed to assist DPS classes - has any similar discussion been undertaken for Crushing Blows

Kalgan: Yes, we have had a similar discussion regarding crushing blows. We feel they add too random an element for players in endgame content.

Kalgan: We expect to deal with this issue at some point in the future (although it may not be immediate)

I imagine this can only be a good thing and will probably benefit druids greatly. But then a bit of the big picture is revealed:

Brannoc: *Shanaya* What is the developer vision on the subject of "pure" and "hybrid" classes? Are pure classes supposed to be better than hybrids in their specialized role? Tanking for a warrior, healing for a priest, magical dps for amage, physical dps for a rogue.

Kalgan: Generally speaking we want "pure" classes to perform better in their primary roles, with hybrids coming close, but providing additional group utility to offset their reduced primary role power.

Kalgan: Some restrictions apply, your mileage may vary.

So, if we're meant to be poorer tanks because we provide other utility, my question is...what utility? The class as a whole is very versitile, of course, but if we are going to MT a boss, then our (non-tanking) utility drops very nearly to zero. You can't shift out while tanking a boss to cast innervate/battle res, you certainly aren't healing, nor do you provide DPS-level damage (although it is slightly higher than a prot warrior). Basically, your utility skills become leader of the pack; which I consider to be practically the same as battle shout. The +healing from improved leader would give it a bit of an edge, but dps warriors can provide thunderclaps...Etc. You can go back and forth.

Maybe we should be penalized for being able to cast mark of the wild before combat? My point is that our non-tanking utility is nothing special if we are tanking. Perhaps there's no way to balance the difference between MT and OT, since an OT could use innervate/battle res? In any case, I think I've come to a greater appreciation of the title of this thread...which stage are we on now?

• sadris · 05/31/07, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by Tasonir

So, if we're meant to be poorer tanks because we provide other utility, my question is...what utility? The class as a whole is very versitile, of course, but if we are going to MT a boss, then our (non-tanking) utility drops very nearly to zero. You can't shift out while tanking a boss to cast innervate/battle res, you certainly aren't healing, nor do you provide DPS-level damage (although it is slightly higher than a prot warrior).

You seem to be misguided. Of course a Druid will never MT a raid boss, but they are a much better choice for a tank over a Paladin or Warrior in the raid for their ability to switch duties as the fight changes. Tank Magtheridon add, then DPS him. Tank Leotheras, DPS in demon stage (or be able to actually kill your Inner Demon =p). Tank Hydross add, DPS the last one down. Tank Morogrim murlocs, DPS Morogrim. Tank Al'ar add, DPS the second one. And the list goes on and on. This wasn't really practical before 2.1, but since our tiered sets are now great for DPS and tanking, the hybridability (?) of Druids is actually possible.

Druids would be apeshit overpowered if they tanked better than Paladins.

Tasonir · 05/31/07, 12:40 AM

Never MT? You sound so certain. You don't think it's ever happened once?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruqD2hy639k

<.<

Someone go upload a boss further along than mulgar, that video is getting outdated

squiffy · 05/31/07, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Tasonir

So, if we're meant to be poorer tanks because we provide other utility, my question is...what utility? The class as a whole is very versitile, of course, but if we are going to MT a boss, then our (non-tanking) utility drops very nearly to zero. You can't shift out while tanking a boss to cast innervate/battle res, you certainly aren't healing, nor do you provide DPS-level damage (although it is slightly higher than a prot warrior).

Every tank classes non-tanking utility drops to virtually zero when MT'ing a raid boss. Bears are not alone in this.

Boevis · 05/31/07, 2:11 AM

Originally Posted by Tasonir

Never MT? You sound so certain. You don't think it's ever happened once?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruqD2hy639k

<.<

Someone go upload a boss further along than mulgar, that video is getting outdated

It's not that it never happens, I MT'd Gruul and Magtheridon over the other 3 warriors in the raid the other night. Mind you, only one of them was remotely prot, but I was the better choice because of gear with both our main prot warriors absent. It's simply that, as MT, a Prot warrior is the better choices 99% of the time. They are tanks with tanking utility, they take less physical, and far less magical damage while being less spiky. And, also simply put, druids are the Best OTs 99% of the time.

While I'm not ok with any class having a monopoly on any raid function, I'm at least pleased that the warriors don't QQ about us stealing their jobs, and we finally have a function in a raid that isn't reliant on the phrase "combat rez a DPS and then innervate the priest"

Monsanto · 05/31/07, 2:39 AM

Originally Posted by sadris

Druids would be apeshit overpowered if they tanked better than Paladins.

Did you mispeak here, because druids do tank better than paladins. Or is this some witty way of you saying that druids are in fact overpowered?

Monsanto · 05/31/07, 2:46 AM

doublepost

Tasonir · 05/31/07, 2:47 AM

What I don't understand is why there must be only one best tanking class. Is there a best dps class? Are mages better than rogues, better than warlocks? Would you call a raid if you had paladin healers and not priests?

What makes the warrior the clearly superior tanking choice? Certainly shield wall is great, but a 30 minute cooldown ability can't be only answer, right?

I thought blizzard intended to balance the three tanking classes, such that they all would be adequate for raiding. Maybe they never will? Do they really want to force one of 27 specs to be the single required spec for every raid? Thou shalt not progress without a protection warrior?

Forgive the rantishness...I just have never understood this.

Monsanto · 05/31/07, 3:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tasonir

What I don't understand is why there must be only one best tanking class. Is there a best dps class? Are mages better than rogues, better than warlocks? Would you call a raid if you had paladin healers and not priests?

What makes the warrior the clearly superior tanking choice? Certainly shield wall is great, but a 30 minute cooldown ability can't be only answer, right?

I thought blizzard intended to balance the three tanking classes, such that they all would be adequate for raiding. Maybe they never will? Do they really want to force one of 27 specs to be the single required spec for every raid? Thou shalt not progress without a protection warrior?

Forgive the rantishness...I just have never understood this.

I don't know if it's a direct connection or not, but a while ago I read what must have been a 7 year old forum post by Furor Planedefiler about warriors vs hybrids in Everquest when it came to tanking. It was pretty enlightening, at least to me, in describing Blizzard's philosophy regarding class hierarchies when it comes to tanking

Anyways, I remember for a brief period of time during TBS, when everything was more potential than actual practice, that things looked like they were shaping up as follows:
Bears = best tanks vs physical damage bosses
Warriors = best tanks vs magical damage bosses or bosses with enrage timers.
Paladins = best tanks vs multiple mobs

Of course that never really panned out, but for a while that was sort of the glimmer in everyone's eye, but I think it would have been a nice direction to go for variety's sake. But the sun has set on that dream.

As far as druids, we made out better than paladins, that's for sure. I don't know any paladin tanks, and can't imagine many situations where they'd have a strong niche. For my part, I've grown accustomed to my new role as "offtank," doing things like eating hateful strikes or tanking adds. It's not as fun or glamerous as being main tank, but hey, it gives me more opportunities to alt-tab out to download porn =)

CasT · 06/04/07, 8:01 AM

There are currently some discussion on the EU-druid boards if an OOC resurrection would be an option to encourage parties to bring druids as only healers. http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....91859231&sid=1

The obvious downside would be stealth ressing. But that is not as easy todo as some people may think. Another question is if this is to be a resto tree talent or a class wide ability.

[e]
Question is if we druids feel like we need it?
How do you see it, as a 41 talent point?

Personally I feel that the inability to ressurrect people makes me reluctant to do 5-man instances out of guild. The need to bring a secondary healer/ resser often makes even further slows down instance progress.

Daboran · 06/04/07, 8:44 AM

OOC rez? Why should that be a selling point except in 5man?

In this context I would prefer they amended Druid healing so that 5man heroic healing was more viable without an offhealer in the group.
Were I still Resto spec I would have no wish to ever put myself through the torture of Druid solo-healing something like heroic Shattered Halls (even in the slightly nerfed condition it is at present) with a less than perfect setup. Sure it is possible, but hardly an enjoyable experience and with little room for any member with less than top notch skills - something you don't have to be quite as strict on with any of the other healer classes.

Druid solo 5man healing has always been a case of either out-gearing the content or having a group which executes each pull in a perfectly controlled manner together with a Druid who excels at his/her job. An OOC resurrection, whilst it would be a nice bonus, is irrelevant until this shortcoming is addressed in my opinion.

Feorthas · 06/04/07, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Daboran

OOC rez? Why should that be a selling point except in 5man?

In this context I would prefer they amended Druid healing so that 5man heroic healing was more viable without an offhealer in the group.
Were I still Resto spec I would have no wish to ever put myself through the torture of Druid solo-healing something like heroic Shattered Halls (even in the slightly nerfed condition it is at present) with a less than perfect setup. Sure it is possible, but hardly an enjoyable experience and with little room for any member with less than top notch skills - something you don't have to be quite as strict on with any of the other healer classes.

Druid solo 5man healing has always been a case of either out-gearing the content or having a group which executes each pull in a perfectly controlled manner together with a Druid who excels at his/her job. An OOC resurrection, whilst it would be a nice bonus, is irrelevant until this shortcoming is addressed in my opinion.

I don't think that things as as bad as you make them out to be, regarding the state of a druid's healing capability. Our HoTs are extremely powerful and rather flexible; the 'fixed' lifebloom is really, really great and should be abused rather thoroughly, yet not enough seem to do so. The root cause of the problems that a Tree appears to run into (no pun intended) seems to be due to most players being unwilling to shift away from direct-healing to healing with 4 HoTs (Rejuv / 3LB stack), an extremely poor direct heal--that provides access to a weaker 5th HoT, which is its only real strong point--an 'oh shit' button (SM), and a 'if I have to use this oh shit button in Tree we're REALLY in trouble' button (NS). Not only does this HoT-centric style of healing allow for heals to be ticking at a rate relative to the amount of incoming damage but also allows for a very steady stream of heals that can be depended upon to go off on schedule for between 7 and 22 seconds.

While all of my recent healing experience is as a 27/0/34 PvP healing build (very HPS focused rather than concentrating on efficiency & longevity), I usually don't find it much of a problem to keep my teammates up; most deaths are due to LoS issues where one will LoS me in the process of LoSing someone else on the other team, making the needed NS+HT or SM impossible. PvP is extremely spiky combat, by nature, and one would think that a healer relying primarily on HoTs would be at a disadvantage; however, remaining nearly 100% mobile and being 100% interruptible while casting my primary heals (non-NS HT is a last resort and I only cast regrowth when I feel 'safe') is a huge advantage and I've kited a melee around before with moderate success--moderate here meaning that "it worked well but ~6000 hitpoints isn't exactly great for a healer in an arena". I know that, in some PvE cases, being able to make some 'fire and forget' healing choices, such as putting HoTs up to cover the damage from AoEs (Shatter, etc.) while staying mobile--allowing one to heal the raid while moving back into range of the MT!--can be a great tool whereas the 'basically immune to reactive silence' thing is more of a PvP-centric plus. All I know is that I've gotten some comments from the guys I PvP with that are pretty much along the lines of "lol, your HoTs are ticking for more than the damage I'm taking" so HoT healing can't be as utterly ineffective as you appear to believe--it's just DIFFERENT.

Grizlock · 06/04/07, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Tasonir

... So, if we're meant to be poorer tanks because we provide other utility, my question is...what utility? ...

I am perfectly okay with the idea of giving that utility boost to make up for slightly less than rogue dps, or slightly less than prot warrior mitigation.

However, my guild brings three rogues. The rogue group consists of: 3 Rogues, 1 shaman, 1 warrior (imp bs). I've run calculations and the scalability of 5% to crit doesn't seem to be better than the ap bonus from battle shout. I didn't believe the rogues at first, but after running numbers my theory crafting attempts seem to agree with this. I am GM so I could put myself in for a rogue, or the warrior, I don't want to be selfish, but I want an optimal raid.

So, we can orphan a rogue and put him in a non-optimal group. Or I remain in a group with the other outcasts who don't get a shaman or a shadow priest. Chalk it up to poor raid balance, but our rogues are top dps on almost every fight (and my friends).

I've offtanked Gruul no problem, but with two able prot warriors it seems better to have me DPSing in that fight, as I like flexibility to brez and innervate (although not necessary in this fight anymore, just an example). There is also the issue of me not getting windfury totem, and nobody wanting GOA even though the 'glancing cap' has been removed.

I've also thought about the MT group where I would get GoA and SoE (No imp bs) but the tank group ussually is MT, Shaman, Warlock, OT, Tree Druid/Paladin. At this point I think that might be the best place for me on a lot of fights (gruul as an example, easy I know). I get GoA, SoE, give the tank a more threat, and heal for 4% on crits (> 800 hp). At this point I think this is the best option for both me, and the healers who would rather be in a more 'healer friendly' group.

My question is where do your guilds put their ferals?