From US forums by Nethaera. Druid buffs confirmed in response to the 2.0.10 patch regarding some problems mentioned for druids.
The Druid ability Lacerate will now land a small amount of instant damage, causing it to generate threat against bleed-immune creatures.
Aka. Lacerate works vs. bleed immune mobs.
The Druid ability Mangle (Bear) will now generate 50% bonus threat.
Aka. threat from mangle almost back to pre-nerf status.
Additional explanation for these fixes and information on Armor:
We’ve taken a close look at constructive feedback provided on our Druid Bear changes, and are hotfixing the following changes today:
1. Lacerate will now do a small amount of direct damage to the target. This means it will generate threat rather than an immune message when used on bleed-immune creatures. However, bleed-immune creatures will still not receive the debuff from Lacerate. This should address concerns about Druids being able to tank in specific bleed-immune encounters.
See above.
2. Mangle (Bear) now generates 50% bonus threat on its damage. We realized that in reducing Mangle damage, we made it less useful as a snap aggro tool. This threat bonus moves it back up to almost where it was before the 2.0.10 changes.
See above again.
And finally, the most important part:
In addition, we examined concerns about the best Feral Druid armor pieces being outdoor world quest rewards, and Druids feeling their tanking ability would not scale with better gear. We are adjusting superior and epic leather pieces designed to be used by Bear Druids and increasing the armor on many of those items, particularly raid sets. These changes, however, will not show up until patch 2.1.0.
If this part holds true the future for druid tanks looks bright.
Aka. threat from mangle almost back to pre-nerf status.
My concern here is that it means that only full Feral Druids with Mangle will be able to offtank effectively. Feral/Resto won't have the threat generation to tank at raid level even wearing the correct gear. Heck, Warlocks can pull aggro off me as it is now with full Feral.
Boosting threat for a base ability (Maul) would have been a far better move to retain hybridity. I'm going to log to PTR and try a 31/30 build if I can drag some decently geared people to an instance.
My concern here is that it means that only full Feral Druids with Mangle will be able to offtank effectively. Feral/Resto won't have the threat generation to tank at raid level even wearing the correct gear. Heck, Warlocks can pull aggro off me as it is now with full Feral.
Boosting threat for a base ability (Maul) would have been a far better move to retain hybridity. I'm going to log to PTR and try a 31/30 build if I can drag some decently geared people to an instance.
I don't see why you consider this to be a problem. Do you really expect to be able to tank as effectively as a full feral (tank) druid in raids with any given hybrid build ? Think about it.
My concern here is that it means that only full Feral Druids with Mangle will be able to offtank effectively. Feral/Resto won't have the threat generation to tank at raid level even wearing the correct gear. Heck, Warlocks can pull aggro off me as it is now with full Feral.
Boosting threat for a base ability (Maul) would have been a far better move to retain hybridity. I'm going to log to PTR and try a 31/30 build if I can drag some decently geared people to an instance.
I believe this is intentional threat boost for mangle rather than to maul. If you are off-tanking - you just don't need that much aggro. All you need is to be able to survive good and keep aggro from healing on you. For being able to tank more seriously you need to invest a lot of points to feral tree. More points you invest, better returns you get. Seems logical and correct for me.
ps. very lovely change to lacerate, quite elegant solution.
And forthcoming itemisation - /me keeps thingers crossed
I knew it would happen, I had faith they couldn't destroy druid tanking so badly and this simply confirms everything I hoped /happydance.
So glad I levelled my druid and made him my main now =).
The Druid ability Lacerate will now land a small amount of instant damage, causing it to generate threat against bleed-immune creatures.
So I am a bit confused about this point. A small amount of instant damage, will this instant damage be the equivalent of letting it tick the duration? will it be less threat than swipe? Should I spam mangle and maul and use lacerate only as a rage dump? Bit unclear tho. If it is just a small amount of damage with a small threat modifier, it is still not really worth to even try to use it.
Last edited by Kink : 03/07/07 at 4:36 AM.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
Purely anecdotal and not well-founded numerically, but it seemed to me last night in Karazhan while MTing that the application of Lacerate was definitely making more threat than the damage dealt would warrant (between 20 and 50, really quite piddling) but I don't think it was the equivalent of a full-duration cast. It was still a very nice surprise, as I hadn't touched the forums before logging in to tank. Started with /o "Hey, I can't remember, did Lacerate always work on Attumen?" and once I tried it on other mobs turned into a little party.
Mangle (with the added threat modifier) definitely felt like the hefty aggro tool it should be, despite the decreased damage. After some initial hesitation I went back to casting it every time its cooldown came up.
Swipe is pretty well neutered though.
Last edited by Vykromond : 03/07/07 at 5:36 AM.
Reason: Said "increased" where I meant "decreased." It's 5am
Purely anecdotal and not well-founded numerically, but it seemed to me last night in Karazhan while MTing that the application of Lacerate was definitely making more threat than the damage dealt would warrant (between 20 and 50, really quite piddling) but I don't think it was the equivalent of a full-duration cast. It was still a very nice surprise, as I hadn't touched the forums before logging in to tank. Started with /o "Hey, I can't remember, did Lacerate always work on Attumen?" and once I tried it on other mobs turned into a little party.
Mangle (with the added threat modifier) definitely felt like the hefty aggro tool it should be, despite the increased damage. After some initial hesitation I went back to casting it every time its cooldown came up.
Swipe is pretty well neutered though.
Makes me sad they didn't bother to stagger these nerfs in a few patches and instead did them all in one go =/.
So I guess with the nerf to swipe its almost for sure a better idea to use lacerate to blow your rage if yer overflowing.
There is light at the end of the tunnel.
The only problem is, it's often an incoming train.
My concern here is that it means that only full Feral Druids with Mangle will be able to offtank effectively. Feral/Resto won't have the threat generation to tank at raid level even wearing the correct gear. Heck, Warlocks can pull aggro off me as it is now with full Feral.
Boosting threat for a base ability (Maul) would have been a far better move to retain hybridity. I'm going to log to PTR and try a 31/30 build if I can drag some decently geared people to an instance.
Maul DID get boosted for non-feral druids from 1.12. Pre-TBC Maul used to be 100% dependant on the damage done for what agro it generated. Now it has a high-static threat values that applies to balance and resto druids as well, in addition to NOT being dependant on Savage Fury anymore for sufficient threat generation. Also add the fact that Natural Weapons got merged with Imp. HT and resto/balance druids got a sufficient threat generation boost. Also add Lacerate and the increased rage generation this patch, and the circle is complete.
Mangle (Bear) is what it is: Burst threat generation and a rage dump, nothing else.
Looks like a few people in the Druid discussion threads were right... with quest rewards already floating around 70% mitigation, upgrades would have been pretty much impossible without breaking the limits. Nerfing the multipliers allows for more elegant gear upgrades to be implemented.
Lacerate is huge news, as is mangle. Can't wait to test out the changes.
I don't see why a hybrid build wouldn't be able to offtank stuff. A hybrid build shouldn't be able to generate nearly as much aggro as a MT'ing build (see: fury in tank gear vs full prot) and raid tactics should reflect that.
That being said, Lacerate as a rage dump is now a very viable method for a hybrid build to at least hold aggro off healers. That, and there's always Growl/Challenging Roar, plus the static threat modifier to Maul.
Maul may have threat, but with the damage nerf, is it enough? That was the point I was making.
Sure you don't need massive threat to offtank, but looking at the huge heal-bombs required on some fights you do need enough to offset that at the start of a fight and to maintain the aggro once the dps train reaches your target,
Maul may have threat, but with the damage nerf, is it enough? That was the point I was making.
It was a nerf for full feral druids (whose total threat value got buffed with Mangle though, so while maul was nerfed, total threat output was raised).
For any druid who wasn't feral below Savage Fury, its a buff.
Originally Posted by Daboran
Sure you don't need massive threat to offtank, but looking at the huge heal-bombs required on some fights you do need enough to offset that at the start of a fight and to maintain the aggro once the dps train reaches your target,
Lacerate is a good rage dump. Given a full resto druid has Intensity he can start with 30 rage, move in and unload a Maul+Lacerate for Initial agro, and take the stakes higher from there.
Maul may have threat, but with the damage nerf, is it enough? That was the point I was making.
Bears have never had any problem holding aggro, and were much better at initial aggro and ramp-up than Warriors anyhow. Even if Mangle is slightly lower in worst-case, full-feral situations--the increased rage generation should allow faster ramp-up at the start of fights anyhow and completely negative any downfall from a slight reduction in Mangle aggro.
Honestly, even before the hotfix, Mangle was still more than worth it...now it's basically beack to nearly it's uber threat generation pre-patch. Threat is almost completely a non-issue for Druids in my experience. Even less so with the Lacerate change (as bleed immune mobs were the only instances where Druids had issues really.
In many ways, I think this patch ended up being more of a tanking buff than a tanking nerf.
Our warriors after testing decided that Shieldslam > * for threat generation and treat it as a holy relic rather than a rage dump, I do not think lacerate can relate to it in any form
Our warriors after testing decided that Shieldslam > * for threat generation and treat it as a holy relic rather than a rage dump, I do not think lacerate can relate to it in any form
General rule for a Warrior is:
Revenge > Shield Slam > Devastate > Sunder
On another note here is the other good news for the druids: Lacerate with instant damage = it can crit = Primal Fury procs!
I read this thread, then wanted to ask this very question, but cookies gone, and couldn't remember password. And you answer it while I'm in the process of retrieving it. Nice timing
The only legitimate use of the BLINK tag:
Schrödinger's cat is [BLINK] not [/BLINK] dead.
I read this thread, then wanted to ask this very question, but cookies gone, and couldn't remember password. And you answer it while I'm in the process of retrieving it. Nice timing
Few upsides without a downside though.
Instant damage = The move is Blockable = No threat or debuff when blocked.
No it isnt, shield slam comes first whenever you look at threat per second and not threat per rage, it also scales with gear, unlikely to revenge; and it does minor dps too. So yes, mangle is exactly the same as shield slam as a rage generation tool, with a bleed buff instead of dispel.
Mangle is good, and it deserves the 40 talents you need to reach it; however, lacerate isnt really comparable to devastate, its stronger than devastate.
No it isnt, shield slam comes first whenever you look at threat per second and not threat per rage, it also scales with gear, unlikely to revenge; and it does minor dps too. So yes, mangle is exactly the same as shield slam as a rage generation tool, with a bleed buff instead of dispel.
Mangle is good, and it deserves the 40 talents you need to reach it; however, lacerate isnt really comparable to devastate, its stronger than devastate.
Devastate critting is alot more added threat than Lacerate critting.
Warriors tank with weapons down to 1.6 speed compared to a druids 2.5 = More chances to unload more Heroic Strikes as rage dump.
Druids don't have another high-threat instant move like Revenge. Revenge is high threat on a 6 second basis approx. We have Mangle + Lacerate vs. a warriors Shield Slam + Revenge + Devastate (Lacerate replaces Swipe).
What I find really strange/annoying is that this thing was trailed as a PvE agro correction, now it turns into a PvP damage nerf. If that was what they intended, why not call it that in the first place
What I find really strange/annoying is that this thing was trailed as a PvE agro correction, now it turns into a PvP damage nerf. If that was what they intended, why not call it that in the first place
It's obvious that was the purpose from the get-go, though. We Druids were basically saying "there's no reason to PvP in cat any more" it was pretty clear they would nerf Bear DPS for PvP-related reasons.
Originally Posted by Plea
No it isnt, shield slam comes first whenever you look at threat per second and not threat per rage, it also scales with gear, unlikely to revenge; and it does minor dps too. So yes, mangle is exactly the same as shield slam as a rage generation tool, with a bleed buff instead of dispel.
I was posting an order of priority, in general. There are very, very few situations where a Warrior would bust out a 17 rage Shield Slam instead of a 2 rage Revenge for a marginal increase in threat gain for an insane increase in efficiency. (Although, there are very few cases other than the start of the fight where the cooldowns will overlap anyhow.)
03/07/07, 3:08 AM
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