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Old 03/07/07, 3:38 PM   #1
Athinira
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Lacerate threat finally measured

After 6 hours of non-stop testing, we finally managed to figure the exact numbers out.

Innate (frontload) threat: 285
Threat from direct damage and bleed: 20% of damage done (aka. 1000 damage = 200 threat regardless of bleed or direct damage).

The above numbers are before Bear Form threat modifier (+30% standard, +45% with Feral instinct). If you want the math, Tangedyn have it since i didn't write it down.

Tests were performed on Ravencrest (EU). Thanks to Tangedyn, Dragonblight (US) for helping out.

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Old 03/07/07, 3:45 PM   #2
Cryect
Bald Bull
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Stormreaver
Hmm thats pretty decent, would mean its always better to spam Lacerate instead of spam Swipe for single targets.

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Old 03/07/07, 3:47 PM   #3
Ochiba
Oatmeal Enthusiast
 
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Ochiba
Night Elf Druid
 
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So if you do 50 damage to a bleed-immune mob that's 295 threat? There's another thread where the consensus seemed to be that if the debuff wasn't applied, the innate threat was not also. This changed with the hotfix?

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Old 03/07/07, 3:48 PM   #4
Tinweasele
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Firetree
could we get your data as well as testing strategy? im interested in bear tanking^_^.

also could i get some clarification on

"Threat from direct damage and bleed: 20% of damage done (aka. 1000 damage = 200 threat regardless of bleed or direct damage). "

makes no sense to me.

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Old 03/07/07, 3:49 PM   #5
vorda
Bald Bull
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Jaedenar (EU)
Yes, from the hotfix notes:
1. Lacerate will now do a small amount of direct damage to the target. This means it will generate threat rather than an immune message when used on bleed-immune creatures. However, bleed-immune creatures will still not receive the debuff from Lacerate. This should address concerns about Druids being able to tank in specific bleed-immune encounters.
The initial treath is applied with the direct damage component.

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Old 03/07/07, 3:57 PM   #6
Apate
POWER = MEAT + OPPORTUNITY = BATTLEWORMS
 
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ChickenArise
Night Elf Warlock
 
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Thanks for testing!

See you, auntie.

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Old 03/07/07, 4:13 PM   #7
Crowbite
I'm sure I'll think of something clever
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Ochiba View Post
So if you do 50 damage to a bleed-immune mob that's 295 threat? There's another thread where the consensus seemed to be that if the debuff wasn't applied, the innate threat was not also. This changed with the hotfix?
I must be reading it totally wrong then. If you do 50 damage, with bearfiance, doesn't that equal 485.75. Where am I going wrong?

(285 innate threat + 50 damage) * 1.45 bearfiance = 485.75

Am I way off base?

Originally Posted by missiletoad View Post
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.

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Old 03/07/07, 4:24 PM   #8
vorda
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Jaedenar (EU)
The 50 damage would only be 10 base threat, according to "Threat from direct damage and bleed: 20% of damage done".

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Old 03/07/07, 4:24 PM   #9
Ochiba
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Ochiba
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Originally Posted by Tytal View Post
I must be reading it totally wrong then. If you do 50 damage, with bearfiance, doesn't that equal 485.75. Where am I going wrong?

(285 innate threat + 50 damage) * 1.45 bearfiance = 485.75

Am I way off base?
Athinira's numbers are before threat modifiers.

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Old 03/07/07, 4:44 PM   #10
Athinira
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Ochiba
So if you do 50 damage to a bleed-immune mob that's 295 threat?
Correct.

Originally Posted by Tinweasele View Post
could we get your data as well as testing strategy? im interested in bear tanking^_^.
Sure, Tangedyn posted how we did it.

Originally Posted by Tangedyn
**snicker**
http://tangedyn.9tribes.net/pics/athinira.jpg

Ok here are the raw numbers
Athinira starts with a lacerate on a target mob, hopefully without critting or autoattacking.
I then healed him with a priest (5/5 Silent Resolve) from a distance until I pull aggro

First we started with the bleed-immune Earth Elementals in Nagrand. Numbers are (did not pull - pull)
23 direct damage, no bleed damage
Healing done:
1326-1365
1346-1366
1362-1378
Window: 1362-1365 /2/1.45/1.3*0.8 -> 289.02 - 289.66

We then worked on the Talbuks nearby:
21 direct damage, 170 bleed damage
Healing done:
1520-1533
1519-1532
1512-1525
1521-1536
Window: 1521-1525 /2/1.45/1.3*0.8 -> 322.76 - 323.61

We went back to STV to find some low armored mobs, working on some tigers and panthers:
29 direct damage, 170 bleed damage
Healing done:
1517-1532
1526-1539
1525-1538
1530-1543
Window: 1530-1532 /2/1.45/1.3*0.8 -> 324.67 - 325.09

The first order of business is to determine the coefficient of the direct damage. The min/max possible coefficients are (324.67-323.61)/8 to (325.09-322.76)/8 -> 0.13 to 0.29

From here we can try to work out the min/max possible coefficients for the bleed damage:
Minimum: (324.67-289.66-0.29*(29-23)) / 170 = 0.1957
Maximum: (325.09-289.02-0.13*(29-23)) / 170 = 0.2075

From here we can be pretty confident that the coefficient for the bleed damage is 0.20. Also it makes sense for the coefficient to be the same for the bleed and direct damage, so we can safely assume that it is 0.20 for the direct damage to, as it falls in between the 0.13 to 0.29 range. It is very tough to test this accurately because of the small amount of damage differences we can obtain.

Now we can work out the innate threat from the 3 windows we have above by subtracting away the direct damage and bleed threat, obtaining:
284.87-285.29
284.42-285.06
284.56-285.41

Therefore the innate thread for Lacerate is 285.

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Old 03/08/07, 6:14 AM   #11
Athinira
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Tytal View Post
I must be reading it totally wrong then. If you do 50 damage, with bearfiance, doesn't that equal 485.75. Where am I going wrong?

(285 innate threat + 50 damage) * 1.45 bearfiance = 485.75

Am I way off base?
(285 + 50 * 0.2) * 1.45 = 427.75 threat

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Old 03/08/07, 6:30 AM   #12
Whiteknight
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Warrior
 
Proudmoore
Nice work getting some concrete numbers.

Only thing I'd point out is - bear form with feral instinct is x1.495 threat, not 1.45. The stance modifier is multiplicative with the talent, so 1.30 x 1.15.

Just thought I'd point that out.

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Old 03/08/07, 7:09 AM   #13
sulliwan
Piston Honda
 
Murloc Druid
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Wait, so the bleed damage only does 20% of the damage done in threat? That makes absolutely 0 sense considering how other similar effects work.

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Old 03/08/07, 8:08 AM   #14
mek
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by sulliwan View Post
Wait, so the bleed damage only does 20% of the damage done in threat? That makes absolutely 0 sense considering how other similar effects work.
This does seem really weird. Is there any other ability in-game that does less threat than damage, without some sort of threat-reducing talent affecting it? I suppose there are some "threat-free" damage types... but for a tank ability, it's extra strange.

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Old 03/08/07, 8:30 AM   #15
Vernichter
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Shaman
 
Baelgun (EU)
While that is certainly a strange mechanic, it makes a lot more sense than the previous incarnation of the skill. It would seem as if the developers had a target amount of threat they wanted lacerate to provide, but they had to balance it for tanking bleed immune mobs. My guess is that they were unsatisfied with having the bleed tick for 1 to 1 threat/damage and then having a much smaller initial threat tag. While this makes it less effective against deaggroing mobs, at least it is generally consistent regardless of if the mob is immune to the bleed or not.

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Old 03/08/07, 9:03 AM   #16
Jini
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Whiteknight View Post
Nice work getting some concrete numbers.

Only thing I'd point out is - bear form with feral instinct is x1.495 threat, not 1.45. The stance modifier is multiplicative with the talent, so 1.30 x 1.15.

Just thought I'd point that out.
Previous testing has found that since 2.0 druids do not have their stance modifier multiplied with their talent modifier, it is instead additive.



Given that this has, presumably, remained the case since the patch Blizzard intends this to be the case for druids.

This does indeed seem to perform quite a bit differently than the previous model for lacerate threat. I wonder whether the previous model was correct or if Blizzard completely changed the mechanic with a hotfix.

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Old 03/08/07, 9:06 AM   #17
Athinira
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Whiteknight View Post
Nice work getting some concrete numbers.

Only thing I'd point out is - bear form with feral instinct is x1.495 threat, not 1.45. The stance modifier is multiplicative with the talent, so 1.30 x 1.15.

Just thought I'd point that out.
No, this is NOT the case for druids, only for warriors.

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Old 03/08/07, 10:26 AM   #18
Liar
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Human Death Knight
 
Turalyon (EU)
Originally Posted by sulliwan View Post
Wait, so the bleed damage only does 20% of the damage done in threat? That makes absolutely 0 sense considering how other similar effects work.
It also makes the Lacerate Idol utterly useless (Idol of Ursoc). Not just that, it also destroys a good situational use of the skill to bring back mobs that reset aggro on you. Moreover, there is no more need to even manage your timing with Lacerate. I mean, for what? 20 more threat?

Either the testing is wrong or Blizzard really messed up half of Lacerate's use.

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Old 03/08/07, 10:28 AM   #19
Athinira
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Liar View Post
It also makes the Lacerate Idol utterly useless (Idol of Ursoc). Not just that, it also destroys a good situational use of the skill to bring back mobs that reset aggro on you. Moreover, there is no more need to even manage your timing with Lacerate. I mean, for what? 20 more threat?

Either the testing is wrong or Blizzard really messed up half of Lacerate's use.
The testing is 99.9% accurate. Its Blizzard who screwed up as usual.

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Old 03/08/07, 10:55 AM   #20
 blindworld
King Hippo
 
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Blindworld
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
I can't think of anything to add constructively to the post, but thanks a lot for doing this. I know I for one really appreciate the time and effort put into it and I'm sure a lot of others do as well. Thanks.

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Old 03/08/07, 1:03 PM   #21
Zyrxil
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Emerald Dream
Considering the strangeness of the 20% damage done mechanic, in a "If that's 'special', what else could be..." sort of way, have you tested the possibility that the Bleed threat is applied up front, and not over the course of the bleed?

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Old 03/08/07, 1:14 PM   #22
 Hamlet
<Druid Trainer> Emeritus
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Cool. Did someone tell Kenco?

Links: Moonkin Resto WoWMath Twitter YouTube
Please don't PM requests for advice on UI or specific gear choices.

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Old 03/08/07, 1:25 PM   #23
Athinira
Piston Honda
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Zyrxil View Post
Considering the strangeness of the 20% damage done mechanic, in a "If that's 'special', what else could be..." sort of way, have you tested the possibility that the Bleed threat is applied up front, and not over the course of the bleed?
Thats not possible according to our testing. As you can clearly see, the total threat generated is different on bleed immune mobs and mobs subject to bleed effects.

Cool. Did someone tell Kenco?
Yes, he is informed.

Last edited by Athinira : 03/08/07 at 1:32 PM.

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Old 03/08/07, 4:21 PM   #24
Crowbite
I'm sure I'll think of something clever
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Athinira View Post
(285 + 50 * 0.2) * 1.45 = 427.75 threat
Sorry I'm confused again. You quoted the above in response to my terrible math but said earlier that 295 threat is applied by doing 50 damage to a bleed immune mob was correct. I take it you mean 295 before modifiers?

Originally Posted by missiletoad View Post
I get enjoyment out of constructing buildings out of my fries and demolishing them with my chicken nugget army as I make monster noises. But you people. You people are FREAKS.

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Old 03/08/07, 4:36 PM   #25
Whiteknight
Bald Bull
 
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Night Elf Warrior
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Athinira View Post
No, this is NOT the case for druids, only for warriors.
Huh, that's bizarre - I wasn't aware of that.
Thanks though - I'll go update the threat thread.

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